Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have just finished setting up a new enclosure and was wondering if anyone could advise me as to what frogs (if any) could be housed in this type of setup...

I took a 20 gal (std) and turned it up on one end so it is now much taller

Siliconed a piece of ceramic tile going at a slant inside so the lower end is at the back wall (this is the "land area"

It's got supports and everything under it-very stable

Siliconed a piece of glass to the front, bottom half of the open front so the top half is open

Planning on putting fish in the bottom half

Used river rock, orchid bark/charcoal mix, and Jungle Mix for substrate on the slanted piece of tile

Planted live mosses (even hot-glued some to the back wall of the tank) and a creeping pink/green viny plant

Added stones/rocks, dried vines and driftwood for decoration

Put together a waterfall (glued stones to a piece of plastic) and rigged a pump going from the water area below to the top of the waterfall which empties back into the water area at the bottom

and the rocks in the bottom of the water area match the gravel substrate and waterfall stones

It reminds me of a mini bonsai 'yard'

I was just wondering if anyone knows of any frogs/toads/lizards/snakes/etc that could be kept in this enclosure (if I put a screen on the open area at the top) - something that would not drown if it somehow fell into the bottom of the tank (about 10 or so inches of water). I am very happy with this setup and would be content to leave it with just fish and plants, but a frog or some little critter always tends to make things even better... (I'm sure most of the folks here would agree)

Kristin

I'm having trouble visualizing your tank. Care to add a picture?

In the meantime, if there is a lot of water in the tank, an aquatic frog such as a fire belly would be cool. While some say darts can drown, I think that the case may be sick frogs go to rehydrate in the water and drown or 2 females fight and try to drown each other. One of my leuc pairs is in a setup with 6-7" of water and the female regularly falls in and gets out just fine.
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Josh Willard
www.joshsfrogs.com

I think I did this right...

Looks like a cool tank. Got any real pics?

The only concern I would have with this kind of setup for a dart would be that the dart would get stuck in the water under the land area. And that is only a concern, not necessarily saying you shouldn't do it. My palundarium has a flat edge so the frogs can't get stuck underneath.
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Josh Willard
www.joshsfrogs.com

For the supports, I took plastic tubes and glued rocks to them (to make them look more natural). If the frogs might climb up the rocks after falling in somehow, that might be ok...or I could find some kind of vine or wood that can be set in the water and would reach up to the land area.

Sorry - I don't have any real pics - my camera lens is broken at the moment.

What suggestios would you make as to darts who could live like this? Maybe something that is more arboreal? The only informaion on darts is what I have read on the web - I have not owned them before - but am planning on getting a few in the near future, as I have a 55 gal tank (no water feature), heavily planted that has been set up for the past 2 months - just waiting for the plants to grow in (I've lost 2 broms because they weren't planted in enough light-but the two directly under the light are thriving...I also have found that one of my favorite plants has flowered over the past 3 days - but are now dropping the flowers...pretty while they lasted tho), and seeing if the moss is going to live or die (the moss I put in the dark, shadowy areas is doing great - but the moss that is out in the open under the bright light is turning yellowish)...I want the tank to look the way I want it to before I add any frogs to it.

But as before...what are some frogs that are more arboreal in nature...and that might have a rep for being able to swim (or at least are able to figure out how to get out of water - I don't know how smart they tend to be...). Also, how many frogs do you think would be able to be kept in this size enclosure? As it is about 1/3 water, I'd say from the land area and up it would probably be equal to about 12 gallons (maybe a little more).

I'm no expert in dendrobates (I simply keep a few, but I have experiance in tanks and vivariums) and I don't know about their swimming rep, but D. pumillio are pretty aboreal and spend alot of time climbing and sitting on leaves, wood, and anything up there. Cage sounds great, just make sure you fill all spaces they could get behind or stuck in. A stuck frog can cause you to have to rip up your tank ,no good! I've used 100% silicone to fill in spaces or glue or just fit many small rocks to make it look natural.
-Sean

thumbnails (such as pumillo) are not good "beginner frogs". A great frog for that setup (or any setup IMHO!) would be a pair of leucs.
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Josh Willard
www.joshsfrogs.com

Neat tank idea!

Seems like the water section would be tough to get out of for most dark frogs. I would say that any frog that can easily climb glss like red eyes, grey tree frogs, or maybe even a single whites tree frog (althouh its a little small for an adult female) would do awesome in a tank setup like that.

what kind of fish were you thinking about using for so small of an area. A beta would work well.

I'd like to see some pics.

All darts are able to swim efficiently enough to get to an egress. A piece of cypress knee that goes into the water would make a good egress in case one fell in accidentally. The top of the tank would need to be pretty well sealed to hold humidity, as darts require high humidity in general. A couple of imitators might do well in this tank, provided the top was sealed off with glass or another humidity barrier. The nice thing about a paludarium set-up is that the excess food such as fruit flies or small crickets are also good fish fodder.

On the other hand, when I tried to picture it from the drawing and all, I wondered if a couple of red-clawed crabs might not be pretty entertaining. They get along with most tropical fish in my experience, and do like to wander around on land. They will tend to nip off land plants, however. This was just an idea that occurred to me, as I kept some once in a paludarium and they were amusing characters. I removed them from my paludarium and gave them to a friend when they seemed to be intimidating my D. galactonotus frogs--although they never actually injured them. You wouldn't want to mix the crabs with frogs, nor mind them doing some plant "pruning."

Josh--You mentioned fire bellied toads for a possibility. I've never seriously kept any frogs except darts, but would Fire-bellies either be toxic to fish from skin exudates, or would they possibly eat them?

Re: your 55 gallon: I have about 3 dart vivariums without waterways, and these do fine, (one with 4 auratus, one with some imitators, and the pumilios don't have a waterway, just a drainage layer,) but I do prefer the complete false bottom-waterfall-stream set ups or a paludarium for darts. The temperatures are better modified over-all, and the darts have more choice about where to hang out if the humidity should drop or it gets too hot. They require less misting in general.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

4 D. auratus blue
5 D. galactonotus pumpkin orange splash back
5 D. imitator
6 D. leucomelas
4 D. pumilio Bastimentos
4 D. fantasticus
4 P. terribilis
4 D. reticulatus
4 D. castaneoticus
2 D. azureus
4 P vittatus

In regards to my 55 gal...I had originally set it up with a small waterfall, but it never quite worked the way I wanted it to (this was my very first - other than my house gecko tank - planted, 'really needs attention' kinda project with all the live things in it - and I love it!)... so I took the pump from it and used it in this tank (the 20 tall) to supply the waterfall.

Also...I have kept firebellies before with fish and had no problem. I used to breed gouramis (bubblenest breeders related to bettas) and one time put about 10 tiny babies in the tank with 2 firebelly toads and a FB newt, figuring the fish might give the toads something to chase after...the babies never got eaten, and as I cleaned the tank often and did frequent water changes, toxins did not seem to build up too quickly.

A marked difference in the fish living with the toads and the other babies was that those in the FB did not grow nearly as fast as the others housed elsewhere. I assumed the toxins may have stunted thier growth?

As gouramis are labyrinth fish (take air from the top of the water like bettas), I am not sure how other types of fish might do with other animals such as the toads (my guess would be that they would not fare so well).

All in all though, I know and love my fish (though at the moment I only have ONE gourami - a platinum male...still fairly young - because I recently moved and did not want to transport all the fish) and for this tank I feel there would be enough water to dilute the toxins enough so that there would not be much harm, if any, done to the fish.

That said, I do not wish to house FB toads in this tank. I prefer frogs, all in all, and would like to get into the hobby of keeping dart frogs.

You mentioned that you are open to other animals in addition to frogs. Darts would be awesome in there, but since you also have gecko experience, wouldn't a phelsuma sp. just look fantastic?

As far as the whole water thing, I think most animals have a natural ability to flee water if they fall in. Providing ease of escape is your only design responsibility.
Ian

I simply adored my little geck...tho he was nocturnal and not at all brightly colored (I very much admired how even I found it hard to spot him at times as he looked so much like tree bark) he was still a joy to observe...

I was wondering about Day Geckos myself. What is the smallest variety, though? I was thinking maybe a Gold Dust? Or is there something smaller?

Also, I added some dried vines to the setup, going from the water and twisting up over the land area...looks nice and will look even better once the plant settles in and begins creeping (imagine...bright pink- and green-leafed purple-flowered vines twisting overhead to form a canopy over the whole thing...awesome).

The General Care and Maintence of Day Geckos, part of The Herpetolcultural LIbrary should still be found at a lot of the herp expos or at some petstores. (Auther Sean McKeown)

As I"m sure you know, there are a tonne of phelsuma species, in all sizes and colours. Size ranges from about 3-12inches. My favorite smaller species is the peacock day gecko and the blue-tailed day gecko