Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This little guy is incredible. I have been so impressed with him I can't even enter my snake room without popping his top and looking in...lol. Anyway, he jusy shed and is looking quite nice. Andrew, if you read this man, thanks again!

One of the nicest kings I've seen on this forum!! Do you think it will hold onto its color with age?
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Matt from Minnesota

I have hatched several clutches of kingsnakes in the past, all speckled, and most of the offspring that I can track down have improved color with age. SO I can see no reason why it wouldn't stay this nice bright yellow. Who knows? Andrew Hare might have some input on what is typical in the area this one was collected. If I remember I think he and I may have discussed it, and he said most kings are yellow, and a few maintain an orangish look throughout maturity. He would have to verify that statement though.

WOW, What a gorgeous snake you have there. Hope it holds that coloration into adulthood you. Post more pics as it grows!
-Scott
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Scott Wahlberg

Nice! I have always liked those Kansas intergrades. I like the high contrast they have. Phil

That is an AWESOME snake Matt.
Phil,
What do you think it is an intergrade with? Looks like pure Holbrooki....Doesn't Splendida's range end to the south of Kansas?
Just asking not arguing.....LOL

Matt...You gotta get a mate for that one. Or sell that one to me.......LOL
Gorgeous!
John Lassiter

John, I'm certainly no authority on the the snakes of Kansas but all the resources I have seen say that most if not all the kings in that state are holbrooki x splendida intergrades. Two that come to mind is the Peterson field guide on R/A in eastern/central N.A. and the Amphibians and Reptiles in Kansas by Joe Collins. I have seen a fair number of Kansas locality adult getula over the years in collections and to me I would call them holbrooki with a distict splendida influence. Very prominent yellow crossbars with a good amount of speckling in between as adults. Certainly some beautiful snakes for sure. I know the intergrade conversation is sometimes subjective and widely open to interpretation in general but I think a good case could be made for calling them intergrades from that area.

Me arguing? Come on now! I don't believe in that sort of stuff lol! Phil

The reason I ask actually is because I have been working with three separate locals of Holbrooki/Splendida intergrades from the South Texas area....All three show decreasing degrees of intergration from the northern county (Calhoun Co.) to the southern county (Nueces Co.).
I was just wondering why there are somewhat pure looking Holbrooki from the Houston area but farther north in Kansas they intergrade with Splendida?????
I know where pure specimens of each are found, but have yet to determine where the intergration begins/ends.
Todd (antelope) and I are trying to figure this out down here in Texas...
John Lassiter
Here are three pics of some I hatched this year....One from each locale...Aransas (in between) 1st, Calhoun (more holbrooki-like) 2nd and Nueces (more splendida-like) 3rd. Let me know what you think....

I can sure see what you are talking about regarding the degrees of holbrooki/splendida influence with each snake. I would be very interested in seeing how the patterns develope as the snakes mature. It is sometimes hard to discern exactly what the adult snakes will ultimitely look like based upon the neonates. I have seen this with nigra and even with floridana. My perception has been that holbrooki is generally a Mississippi valley subspecies thats range extends roughly north and south along that water way and its tributaries and associated river swamps in the southlands. To the east of this range is nigra and to the west splendida. Based on habitat association alone I would not be surprised that there would be splendida influence far to the north of the Houston area, especially in a state with the topography of Kansas, but I would be surprised if it were to occur to the east of Houston or in the coastal areas in that region. At least thats what I'm seeing from my outsiders perspective but I could have it all wrong lol! I have always thought that particular range of intergradation to be interesting and would like to hear more about what you and Todd have learned. Phil

Yeah, Phil, we're crunchin' the numbers now! Currently, I have found 4 in Nueces co, 1 in Refugio co., and 5 in Calhoun co. this year. I want to get one from deep enough south (SOCKHEAD) and west to start bringin' it closer to home. I think you are correct in the Mississippi River valley thing, and the holbrooki are definitely sliding down the coast further and further. But up in Houston and the Angelina and Crockett National Forests "pure" holbrooki are found. Finding the east/west barrier or boundary for splendida is a stumper. I think I remember you saying that the nigra has a pure form with no specks and specks according to it's habitat, but they do intergrade with holbrooki at your western border, supposedly. Have you found any you suspect are obvious intergrades? Sorry for ramblin', it's what I do second best!
Todd Hughes
P.S. Matt, we're coming to help find that ugly snake a mate! LOL!

Good luck in your search Todd. Sounds interesting! In KY I would not consider the heavily patterned nigra I have seen to be intergrades since there is more of a light chain pattern more than interband speckling. Its as if some population have a tendency to retain large amounts of the neonate patterning. Just last month a book was published that was the life work of Les Meade, a herpetologist here in KY that passed away not long ago. Primarily a scientific journal it has all sorts of neat stuff about distribution of snakes in KY based upon collection specimens examined by the author. Among the snakes he list for KY is holbrooki and he has a pic of a specimen from the north end of Reelfoot lake (Fulton county) in extreme western KY. The snake sure looks like a holbrooki to me or at least a very strong intergrade. I have herped this area several times but have yet to see a king at this exact locale. I have seen them from the county to the north (Hickman) and the county just east (Graves) of there and they clearly were not holbrooki. I now have something to look forward to on my next visit there. I doubt if there are pure speckled kings there but it does look like that in at least a small area there may well be intergrades. He had a handful of other specimens too that he listed as holbrooki from the same area but they were not pictured in his book. Phil

Apparently, the range extends even to the southeastern tip of Nebraska as well. Hmmmmmmm?! Literature says only Lousiana and Arkansas are totally free from intergradation. Dang, but them splendida get around!
Todd Hughes

..ONLY use it as a general guide. I have a frozen DOR red milk snake that a friend of mine found on the road here in Oktibbeha, MS. I have seen one live specimen that is well over 36" at the local Noxubee Wildlife Refuge too. And I know of three other well-known individuals who have collected them in our county. With that said, the only L.t.ssp that is listed here is a scarlet kingsnake, and funny thing is NO ONE has ever seen one, only red milks. And these are pure red milks as well....prime examples. What I am trying to say is that although Peterson's guide claims that the whole state of Kansas is an intergradation zone, I am sure that some areas have the habitat that supports more snakes with holbrooki influence, maybe even "pure" forms, and just the opposite as well, with some splendida populations too.

That's why I field herp, to answer some of these questions for myself. I agree for the most part, Matt, and hope to herp most of these contiguous states. I love the south, so much variety! East coast, Gulf coast, west coast, and the mountain ranges of N.M., Colo., and Cali., and Ariz. are some of the spots I hope to hit in the near future, but there is so much to see in Texas, and it's so friggin' hard to drive out of! LOL!
Todd Hughes

I agree, a field guide is simply that, a "guide". New county records for different species are made on a fairly regular basis. At the same time entire populations are extirpated in some areas creating isolates of whats left with little gene flow to the next population. I do like field guides for a general resourse though and generally these are based on the best information available by knowledgeble herpetologist in the various states. Nothing like a first hand look though! Phil

No doubt! man, I love the field!
Todd Hughes

Looking great! I am jealous....that is really something special. Tom Stevens

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Matt, That's a beautiful king. I hatched out ten Lincoln County, Kansas locale speckled kings and some of the babies are close to the coloration that your king has. Your king has more yellow towards the head than my hatchlings. What county in Kansas is that speckled from? Hope that you can pair it up with a similarly colored mate and produce some babies. I'd definitely be interested.
Brad (BLB1029@cs.com)

Brad, I had actually thought about contacting you to see if you still had any of those Kansas locales available. I know you offered me a pair and I refused. If I had known this guy was going to show up on my doorstep I may have gotten some from you as well. He is from Russell county in the central part of the state. I'll try to send you an e-mail as soon as I return from the Appalachian snake adventure I have this weekend. I'm leaving out tomorrow and will return Sunday.

Oh, great to see you around. I was going to e-mail you anyway here soon.

Oh, and another thing. I found my very first MS mole king tonight, sadly it was DOR and HUGE! A very nice light colored male with orange saddles that is around 36". It's sad my first one ever has to be dead.

Matt,
I'm always "around" with reference to checking the forums. Just don't post very often!
I have not attempted to get rid of any of the Kansas locale Speckled Kings yet. I will be going to a reptile show next weekend and will be taking these kings along as well as some hatchling Eastern Black Kings (Alabama locale). Just let me know if you are still interested and I will get you whatever you want.
Brad

Did you know that our two counties actually border? How cool is that. I would love for you to send me some pics of your Lincoln offspring so I can see how they look in comparison to mine. I'm glad you held on to them , cause I might just have to clear another spot in my snake room..lol. I think you have my e-mail, but if not it's mattbrock02@yahoo.com. It may take all weekend before I reply, we're headed out for TN and North Carolina this evening. Thanks!!

I can't speak for anyone else, but that's the nicest looking king I've seen all year, including my deckled, (well, maybe except for her!) Nah! You win Matt, you luckier dog! LOL! Awesome!
Todd Hughes

Flip side

>>This little guy is incredible. I have been so impressed with him I can't even enter my snake room without popping his top and looking in...lol. Anyway, he jusy shed and is looking quite nice. Andrew, if you read this man, thanks again!
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