Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have posted several times before. I have one male and one female leo I got from a friend. They came housed together. The female is of good weight but the male has always been thin. They started mating and I have gotten 3 clutches from her (one bad, 2 still in the incubator). She laid 2 weeks apart each time within a few days.

About 3 weeks ago I took out the male because it seemed as though he was loosing weight which he could not afford to loose. I finally saw him eat in his own cage - crickets. Mealies and waxworms just don't seems to move enough to really catch his attention. Since then he has eaten about a dozen crickets a week. His temps are good and he sheds good but has put on NO weight. The crickets are always dusted. I took a fecal to the vet and to his surprise is came back totally clean. He thinks this is all hormonal. Other than the fact he is so thin he looks good, moves a lot and is not lethargic. But to give you an idea, his tail taipers off from the base - there is NO fat stored there at all. This is no exageration.

In addition, ever since I removed the male from the female she has been moody and has not laid her next clutch. Is this normal? I have been expecting the eggs from her now for a week. Her conditions are ideal also and she has been eating well.

Any suggestions would really be helpful. I don't want to loose these guys. I have really gotten attached in the few months I have had them.
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Jessica

0.1.0 Sharpei-Husky mix...all attitude
0.0.1 Ball Python
2.2.0 Corn Snakes
1.1.0 Leopard Gecko
1.0.0 Blotched Tiger Salamander
...and a saltwater tank!

often the female can be stressed from breeding and should be separated. I haven't heard of the male being stressed, but I don't see why not.

Whats the substrate? I would start looking at the setup bottom up, to determine what is keeping his weight down so much. As you may realize, if the temps are correct these little guys won't eat.

Hope this helps a bit. Post all the specs on the enclosure. This might be more indicative than you may realize.

My first inclination is to get a second vet opinion. A tail like that, especially on an adult male, is a sign of a very sick gecko. I wouldn't rule out parasites, bacterial/systemic infections, I'd look into impaction...the whole cliche schpiel.

Keep note/a log of urate & fecal quantity and consistency, as well as how much they are eating.

Check out this site, its a great beginning reference for leo ailments:
Dr. Gecko
www.drgecko.com

Here are some photos of health problems:
www.thegeckospot.com/leohealth.html

I also agree that it would help if you elaborated on the set-ups and housing conditions. I'll reply and offer my own input, if I can, if you provide some more info... Please fill this survey out as well as you can. It will give everyone some more information:

Appproximately how old are the geckos?

Are they male or female?

How long have you owned this gecko?

Where did you acquire this gecko from?

Does this gecko have a history of medical problems? If so, what are they?

How is this gecko housed? Include substrate, caging, hides, etc.

How is heat provided/regulated/monitored?

What are the temperatures throughout your enclosure? Are you checking the surface and/or temperatures? How are you measuring the temperatures? Please try and provide both surface and air temperatures.

How is light provided?

Are you using a regular photoperiod? If so, what is it?

How is water provided? Do you know if the gecko is drinking?

What are the humidity levels?

What type of substrate are you using? Have you changed the substrate since you got the gecko? Do you know what substrate it was on before you aquired the gecko?

How is the enclosure furnished?

What are your cleaning and disinfecting routines/practices?

What is the gecko's diet? Include type of food offered, how much food is offered and the supplementation schedule.

How often, when and how is the gecko being handled?

Does this gecko have a reproductive history? If so, what is it?

Has this gecko been exposed to any other reptiles?

Have you noticed any behavioural changes?

Have you noticed any appetite changes?

Have you noticed any changes to your gecko's excrement? Can you describe its appearance?

When did you first notice a problem? How long has the problem been going on?

Can you describe the problem(s) in great detail?

Do you keep a detailed log and records? Can you provide this information?
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Too many Leos
1.0 feline "Spot"
0.1 canine "Tika"

Thanks for the info. I checked out the webpage and the male looks nothing like any of these ailment. Clear and alert eyes. Good skin. No shed probs. No burns. Maybe dehydration, but other than that looks healthy besides weight. Don't think it is impaction as the vet check was ok, fecal was ok, and stool is produced daily and is solid and looks like the females.

>>Appproximately how old are the geckos? approx 1yr
>>
>>Are they male or female? one male (thin) one female
>>
>>How long have you owned this gecko? both for 3 months
>>
>>Where did you acquire this gecko from? friend
>>
>>Does this gecko have a history of medical problems? If so, what are they? No. Male was thin when I got him. Has put on no weight despite my efforts
>>
>>How is this gecko housed? Include substrate, caging, hides, etc. Normal set-up: 20gal long, reptile carpet, 90F hot spot approx 80 ambient depending on room temp fluctuation, multiple hide spots on both hot and cool side, moist hide for shed with saphrum moss, calcium only dish, dish with mealies and waxworms at all times, water dish.

Hospital tank (male currently):10gal, paper towel substrate, 2 hides, one each side, calcium only dish, water dish, mealies and waxworms at all times, crickets added daily, temps as above.
>>
>>How is heat provided/regulated/monitored? Heat with appropriate night-glo bulb.
>>
>>What are the temperatures throughout your enclosure? Are you checking the surface and/or temperatures? How are you measuring the temperatures? Please try and provide both surface and air temperatures. The temperatures are checked at the substrate level using a digital thermo. probe. Checked in each tank under spot and on cool side for ambient reading.
>>
>>How is light provided? Room light provided.
>>
>>Are you using a regular photoperiod? If so, what is it? Regualr daylight hours provide some light
>>
>>How is water provided? Do you know if the gecko is drinking? shallow water dish in both cases. Have seen both drink at some point
>>
>>What are the humidity levels? Humid hides have high humidity. Otherwise 40-50%.
>>
>>What type of substrate are you using? Have you changed the substrate since you got the gecko? Do you know what substrate it was on before you aquired the gecko? They have always been on carpet or paper towels as far back as I can get info on.
>>
>>How is the enclosure furnished? Hides are coconut shells and cork bark pieces. Also have some slate pieces for warm surface/belly basking on the warm side. Rocks never get too hot.
>>
>>What are your cleaning and disinfecting routines/practices? Spot clean daily/every 2 days. Full clean of carpet and fixtures every week with reptile cleaner (not wipe-out brand but along those lines)
>>
>>What is the gecko's diet? Include type of food offered, how much food is offered and the supplementation schedule. Always has mealies and waxworms in a bowl and is offered crickets dusted every night
>>
>>How often, when and how is the gecko being handled? Minimal now to avoid stress. Male is very skitish
>>
>>Does this gecko have a reproductive history? If so, what is it? Mated earlier this season as they were origianlly housed together. Female has laid 3 clutches, execting the 4th soon. Some eggs look fertile when candled.
>>
>>Has this gecko been exposed to any other reptiles? No
>>
>>Have you noticed any behavioural changes? No
>>
>>Have you noticed any appetite changes? Have actually seen him eat lately. Never did at the beginning.
>>
>>Have you noticed any changes to your gecko's excrement? Can you describe its appearance? solid brown to black color with some whitish discharge. looks normal
>>
>>When did you first notice a problem? How long has the problem been going on? From arrival. Thin but no behavioral probs
>>
>>Can you describe the problem(s) in great detail? see above
>>
>>Do you keep a detailed log and records? Can you provide this information? Not yet. Did monitor food intake when separated and for one week counted missing 4 waxworms, one mealworm and 8 crickets. Since that first week has eaten approximately a dowzen crickets a week and minimal waxworms/mealies.

Thanks for any help you can offer!
>>-----
>>Too many Leos
>>1.0 feline "Spot"
>>0.1 canine "Tika"
-----
Jessica

0.1.0 Sharpei-Husky mix...all attitude
0.0.1 Ball Python
2.2.0 Corn Snakes
1.1.0 Leopard Gecko
1.0.0 Blotched Tiger Salamander
...and a saltwater tank!

Jessica,

Thanks for filling out the form. I have to say that it sounds like you are doing a great job with your husbandry -- most people with leos they are concerned about have a few secondary issues going on with their housekeeping, but I like your temperatures, your feeding schedule, etc. I applaud that!

It is so hard to offer a valid opinion without seeing what is going on with the male...

Right now, there are only 2 things I can think to say:

1) Breeding does stress males too. You can see this visibly when their coloration fades during breeding seasons. I am curious to see if they both do better while isolated from each other. Right now, I only have 1 year-round pair. They seem to be in great health but I have to say that the female is quite hot -- she and the male are very equal in terms of deciding when mating occurs, who takes what food, etc. But I feel like this is less common. I'm just lucky they've figured out a happy co-existance! I have had females bully males and that may be something to consider. I'm hoping the separation is beneficial for your male...also, I honestly think that since the male's health has a huge question mark hanging over it, you should not be breeding the pair at all.

2) I think you need at least a second veterinary opinion. Make sure you are seeing a specialized herp. vet and try to find a good one in your area by asking around. Many vets have no clue what to do with leos and even some self-proclaimed reptile vets miss parasitical infections, etc. Otherwise, I'm at a loss -- since your male is exhibiting minimal symptoms but his tail obviously points to something gravely wrong, I would seriously pursue another vet check and another fecal (or two)

Sorry I can't be much help. I do think your husbandry is way beyond average, so at least that's a major plus! Either way, I think these geckos have perhaps had health issues for some time and they are probably lucky they found you!

Good luck and please update us/me!
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Too many Leos
1.0 feline "Spot"
0.1 canine "Tika"

Thanks again for offereing your suggestions. I really appreciate the kind, reassuring words about my efforts. I do plan on keeping them separated for some time to monitor their actions and health. The female is great now except for her being "moody" since I removed the male. To be honest, I just think my male is not as aggresive as most and my female a little more agressive than average so they evened out when together. I never saw fighting or aggresive behavior after the initial meeting. And there was always food in the cage for a hungry gecko. If I can get all these issues worked out I really would like to set-up a larger colony at some later date (much later at this rate - their health is of utmost importance). As for my vet, he comes highly recommended and specializes in herps. He helped me get through a hard time with a sick baby corn and has always offered good advice. I think if the situation does not pick up in the next few days I will take in another fecal and get a recheck. The only question I have is it advisable to start to force feed if his eating habits don't pick up? Maybe try and force some wax-worms? Or is there something better? That's the only other thing I can even think of. Thanks again for your help! You always post such great advice.

>>Jessica,
>>
>>Thanks for filling out the form. I have to say that it sounds like you are doing a great job with your husbandry -- most people with leos they are concerned about have a few secondary issues going on with their housekeeping, but I like your temperatures, your feeding schedule, etc. I applaud that!
>>
>>It is so hard to offer a valid opinion without seeing what is going on with the male...
>>
>>Right now, there are only 2 things I can think to say:
>>
>>1) Breeding does stress males too. You can see this visibly when their coloration fades during breeding seasons. I am curious to see if they both do better while isolated from each other. Right now, I only have 1 year-round pair. They seem to be in great health but I have to say that the female is quite hot -- she and the male are very equal in terms of deciding when mating occurs, who takes what food, etc. But I feel like this is less common. I'm just lucky they've figured out a happy co-existance! I have had females bully males and that may be something to consider. I'm hoping the separation is beneficial for your male...also, I honestly think that since the male's health has a huge question mark hanging over it, you should not be breeding the pair at all.
>>
>>2) I think you need at least a second veterinary opinion. Make sure you are seeing a specialized herp. vet and try to find a good one in your area by asking around. Many vets have no clue what to do with leos and even some self-proclaimed reptile vets miss parasitical infections, etc. Otherwise, I'm at a loss -- since your male is exhibiting minimal symptoms but his tail obviously points to something gravely wrong, I would seriously pursue another vet check and another fecal (or two)
>>
>>Sorry I can't be much help. I do think your husbandry is way beyond average, so at least that's a major plus! Either way, I think these geckos have perhaps had health issues for some time and they are probably lucky they found you!
>>
>>Good luck and please update us/me!
>>-----
>>Too many Leos
>>1.0 feline "Spot"
>>0.1 canine "Tika"
-----
Jessica

0.1.0 Sharpei-Husky mix...all attitude
0.0.1 Ball Python
2.2.0 Corn Snakes
1.1.0 Leopard Gecko
1.0.0 Blotched Tiger Salamander
...and a saltwater tank!

Thanks for the response.

When they were together they were in a 20gal long. The "hot spot" is 90 and the ambient temp is 78-82 depending on room flucuation. They have multiple hides on each side including a moist hide which she uses to lay and they both use during shed. THe Moist hide has shaprum (no idea how to spell that - sorry) moss in it. The substrate is reptile carpet. They have never been on sand of any sort. There is a small calcium only dish, a food dish and water dish.

His separate tank is currently a 10gal with the same temp gradient and paper towel as substrate. 2 hides, one hot one cold, water dish and calcium bowl.

Any help would really be appreciated. Hope I didn't forget to add something.

>>often the female can be stressed from breeding and should be separated. I haven't heard of the male being stressed, but I don't see why not.
>>
>>Whats the substrate? I would start looking at the setup bottom up, to determine what is keeping his weight down so much. As you may realize, if the temps are correct these little guys won't eat.
>>
>>Hope this helps a bit. Post all the specs on the enclosure. This might be more indicative than you may realize.
-----
Jessica

0.1.0 Sharpei-Husky mix...all attitude
0.0.1 Ball Python
2.2.0 Corn Snakes
1.1.0 Leopard Gecko
1.0.0 Blotched Tiger Salamander
...and a saltwater tank!