Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I personnally think the prices for female ball pythons have been getting a little out of hand. I see people asking $600 to &700 for normal 500 to 800 gram females? I am a firm believer in the free market and I think people are entitled to ask whatever they want when selling their own property, but come on now??

I want to suggest to everyone NOT to over-pay in this super heated climate as this will only make the situation that much worse for us all. I would suggest that all of us keep our money in our pockets and WAIT. If you think about it; everyone realizes there is a shortage of females due with the influx of new people moving to Ball Pythons as their pet of choice. This has led to everyone, (including me), into stocking up on as many, many, many females as possible. By this time next year, or the year after that at the latest, I belive the market will be FLOODED with 500 to 1000 gram animals and the people who are price gouging for snakes will have to drop their prices or be left on the outside looking in. Be patient...the tide will turn and all of us will benefit.

Regards,
Alan Marganski
S.E. CT

This is very normal - with breeding season upon us again all females that may be breedable this season will be priced high - the same snake could be bought for $20-$300 between Febuary and August but that's how it goes.

Let's put it this way if you have a male Mojave (or other co-dom or high end animal) that will breed this season how big of a deal is that $600 in consideration to what you will make when the eggs hatch? Not much. Prices only reflect what people are willing to pay.
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Tosha

"One of these days i am going to wake up..look around...and realize my place looks more like "Ace Venturas"s than my own." Coldthumb

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul "JP"
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 lizard rescued from vicious feline

Prices too high......prices too high! Kills me.

Let me ask you one simple question...........

If I told you, all you had to do is invest $1000 and in 1 year I could turn that in to $10,000.....$20,000.....even $30,000/$40,000. How would you respond to that? Is that a good investment....would you keep that $1000, "in your pocket" or would you spend it on the high probabilty of the huge return????

If I have a Lesser Platty.....a Pin....A Mojave....Fire....spotnose....and more and more......and I don't have enough big girls to breed that male to.....Your trying to tell me not to invest in $500-$800 large female normals.

To me it's simple math.

Why do you think the prices are high on adult females??? Simple....because they are a huge key to producing a tremendous amount of sales dollars. You may let your pride keep the "Money in your Pocket" but your money won't make more money for you in your pocket. You need to invest!

PS....When those "over priced" normal females are posted I find one thing a bit strange......you never see them back up on the board again......hmmm.....why???

Must be because most people get the simple principle I have outlined above!
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Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles
pythonpassion@hotmail.com
www.pythonpassionreptiles.com

Big females are hard to find and will keep being hard to find..this years shortage of babies will and is going to affect us all

I find it weird that people don't understand supply and demand. If you pay any attention you will see that when someone posts big adult females, for even up to $500, it will sell almost immediately. Why would you post your animals for less than what you can sell them for? I don't get it...
Tom

I am not talking about fenales that are 2000 grams I am speaking about ads that have a 500gram 1 year old and the price is $600.00. That is price gouging. I didnt say it is wrong or illegal..just too high.

Alan

am not talking about fenales that are 2000 grams I am speaking about ads that have a 500gram 1 year old and the price is $600.00. That is price gouging.

Price gouging is when you are selling a commodity...nay...a NECESSITY to people and you jack up the price. Like fresh water, gasoline, food, etc etc. People don't NEED female Ball Pythons, so there is NO way you can "price gouge" anyone. Don't like the price, don't buy it. But complaining about it? What's the point? You think people are going to lower their prices because someone complains about it on Kinksnake? LOL. Ummm...no.

I sell animals based on what they are worth to ME. And really, its not worth selling CAPTIVE-BRED, well started female Ball Pythons for anything less. Actually, I don't sell any at all. Given that each female in 1-2 years is going to have roughly a $15,000 -$25,000 clutch EACH, why would I sell any of them for $600?? Bad business in my eyes. But if someone wants to pry one from my hands, they gotta pay. Because really, they are taking 20 grand outta my pocket in the long term.

Don't like the price, don't pay it. There's always someone else that wants to MAKE money and doesn't trip ove the pennies to doing so.

I use a simple formula for determining the price of a normal female -- $0.25/gram.

(This is a per gram calculation based on the popular notion of $75/300g.)

Here is an average breakdown of weights and costs:

1200g -- $300
1500g -- $375
1800g -- $450
2100g -- $525
2400g -- $600
2700g -- $675
3000g -- $750

Of course, there are exceptions to this formula. The special females (Blackbacks, Stripes, Reduced Patterns, Harlequins, etc) may demand higher pricing as well as the ridiculously large (4000g ) females.

Chris
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mean people suck

I think your formula is spot-on...

Unfortunately, the market for females is temporarily white hot. The good news is; if people don't pay..the prices will drop. Also, the supply is going to increase (my guess is starting over the next twelve months) to meet overwhelming demand.

Regards,
Alan

P.S. I also do not think it is cyclical or "with the breeding season upon us..." as someone else suggested.. By this rational prices would be starting to go down now and their not.

The point is $600 for an animal that can bring in $10K in a couple of months is well worth it. People will pay those prices because they see the return - if you can't afford it then don't buy it. Simple as that. Its supply and demand not price gouging because the value is there.

BTW: Why on earth would the price of a potential breeder go down at the start of breeding season?
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Tosha

"One of these days i am going to wake up..look around...and realize my place looks more like "Ace Venturas"s than my own." Coldthumb

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul "JP"
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 lizard rescued from vicious feline

So let me get this straight...by your rational...

If I build a widget and I sell it for $10.00. Your telling me I should not care if the box I buy to sell it in cost me $1.00 or $3.00 'cause I just made ten bucks??

OOOOKaaaay....???

Regards
Alan

Yes. That is what she is saying. And you are both right. When dealing with a $10 return from a widget, you may wish to shave costs. However, when dealing with a $10,000 plus return, most people don't care about spend a few hundred dollars extra. In the strict business sense, it would be best to profit $9,700 after breeder female expenses than to only profit $9,500 after breeder female expenses. Of course, many people are not taking the business side too seriously. After all...$9,500 is still a very nice profit. Don't you agree?

Chris
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mean people suck

Yes I agree..

It is not strictly a cost thing for me when it comes to buying new animals..if I like something alot it means it is worth it to me to buy it whatever the cost.

I just do not like to see ads that have a 1 year, 600gram snake (like the one I just saw on Fauna)with a $650.00 price tag. Its not a I can't afford it and I am jealous thing (I can), its more like I am going to buy a lot of 10 female baby thing and wait a year for them to get to 600 grams and screw that guy thing.

This hobby is all about patience, but you know that.

I do feel there is an element on this site that is in the business of selling of snakes and wants to see high prices...the higher the better..and thats fine. Just like a goup of other people saying were not going to overpay..we will wait..keep our money and make the prices go down by breeding our own and not paying the inflated prices..that should be ok also...no?

Alan

I agree...and more people should think like me. The world would be a better place.

Isn't that right, Tosha?

Chris
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mean people suck

LOL Chris - you think the pied market is falling - so I'm not sure ... she says chuckling to herself and making note to buy strong umbrella.
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Tosha

"One of these days i am going to wake up..look around...and realize my place looks more like "Ace Venturas"s than my own." Coldthumb

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul "JP"
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 lizard rescued from vicious feline

I never said that the Piebald market would fall. I only used a scary thread title to kickstart the discussion. I believe the Albino, Piebald, and Clown (simple recessives) markets will remain high as long as new codoms keep popping up and people take advantage of the faster payoffs.

Someday EVERYONE will return to the simple recessives.

(And on that day we shall kneel in awe of the Albino Piebald.)

Chris
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mean people suck

I'm the type that likes to get hatchlings as well and get them to breeding size myself that is my preference and I'm patient. If however I had a male mojave that was ready to breed and could get my hands on a couple extra females it would be stupid not to take them. Also I would not sell any of my females that were potentially ready to breed this year for less than $500, the people buying them are not breeding them to a normal male.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons

Not to mention you'll sell that widget once... you'll breed that female for years. The profit from the female is more than what people are figuring on here. Ron
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The Crawl Space

Chris
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mean people suck

Hows this - if your widget makes me $1000 in 6 months I'll gladly give you $50 for it.
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Tosha

"One of these days i am going to wake up..look around...and realize my place looks more like "Ace Venturas"s than my own." Coldthumb

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul "JP"
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 lizard rescued from vicious feline

Chris
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mean people suck

Hey zefdin
Ill buy every c.b. normal female you have over 1000 grams for $100 ea. If you want everyone else to do it why dont you start??? I have cash and you can email me at nextworld3@bellsouth.net. So put your snakes where your mouth is ( i thought that was funny)
Thanks
Jon
Next World Exotics

Hell I will buy every c.b. female over 1000 grams for $150ea. lol
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Rob Trenor
RK Reptiles
www.rkreptiles.com
www.rkreptiles.net
www.oldworldchameleons.com
www.ballpythonmorphs.net
www.beardedragons.com

_____

Fine Fine since Rob and I are in a bidding war ill give you $200! Lets see those females!!!

I never said I expected a 1000g female to sell for $100.00. I said a sub-adult 600gram females for $650.00 was price gouging.

But hey, I'm just a guy with a couple snakes for pets and personal enjoyment.

I understand when you are in a position like Nextworld Exotics where one is on the cutting edge of the genetic envelope and creating some new exotic morph almost daily, price may not be a consideration.

I was just speaking for the little guy...but maybe that is not welcome in this forum where so many are making a living off this trade?

Regards
Alan

I don't care what time of year.....where....how.....who.....If I put 5 - 2000 plus gram nice breedable adult females that are in a captive collection up on the KS board for $500 they would be gone all day long in seconds!

Please someone tell me different.

While that money is in your pocket and you are waaaaaiiiiiting for the right time. other are aggressively investing and making a mint.

Let see......should I listen to your advise and not buy a nice big normal female for $600 or should I spend the $600 breed it to my Cinny, or my Lesser Platty, or my Mojave, or my Fire....and make 20-30K the following year.

Hmmmmm
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Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles
pythonpassion@hotmail.com
www.pythonpassionreptiles.com

I was speaking of 600 gram animals for $650.00, not 2000 gram animals for $500.00.

I really cant make myself more clear on that. I think some people, maybe not you, deliberately want to misrepresent what I said to make it seem outrageous.

Alan

People are asking and getting those prices because they are selling time. The time put in to raise that female up to 500g - 800g. LOL, there will never be too many adult breedable females, flooded market!! hahahahaha
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons

I really want you guys to make money selling snakes...dont take it personally. If I were in the business of making a living off snake sales I'd want the price as high as possible also.

Good luck to all the Pro-Breeders on this thread.

Alan

I'm far from a pro - breeder, this fall will be the first time I try my hand at it but I completely understand supply and demand. The $500 price tag isn't advertising for the average hobbyist who wants a pet it is the breeders who are going to pay it. The pets end up being the extra males that the breeders don't need, wich is why normal males even adults are so inexpensive. As long as there are co-doms and dominant traits out there there will be a high demand for breedable normal females.
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons

I was specifically speaking of an ad for a 600gram $650.00 animal. Roughly, 365 days old...I dont think placing a .90cent mouse in front of a snake every few days for a year is a lot of work to justify the price tag.

Thats only my opinion...you can pay it if you'd like. I will give you the link if you want.

Alan

NOBODY as a general rule gets the asking price on every add..............if they want 4 then ask 6 and everybody wins...............only a fool would sell a normal female that they raised for anything less when its breeding potential whn mixed with expensive co-doms is so high........ive got over 200 females ranging from a few 01's,02's,03;s and a boat load of 04's and 05's.............i wont need them all anytime soon but as my holdback morphs whether resessive or co-doms start to replace SOME of them and i sell off some others i would never take less then 500 each for any female that will breed in the next coming season from time of sale............anything less would be foolish............is someone wants one cheeper yeah they can be found or a baby can be found REAL cheep but these are well established and documented on film as to their entire lives history to include pics and feeding cards.........its money in the bank for the buyer..............to each his own ....as tosha said if that 600 dollar female will produce 10k and yuo have the males to do it then it is worth it............if your getting a group of females for FUTURE needs and dont have the morhps yet then no........ shop around and hand pick your girls and slowly build a nice collection get a pastel to start and your off and running.................ALL my best .......Jerry Lowry SJS reptiles

I think your point was missed, I agree with you about crazy sub-adult prices.

But if anyone thinks that a 500-600 gram female will make them big bucks in a few months, I have a dozen or so 05 hold backs that are 3-3.5 months old and 400plus grams. I'll let you have them for a mere $500/per (just kidding there not for sale).

they will be 500-600 grams soon LOL

TomChambers

Alan,

That price does seem a bit high to me... I have a very nice 600 gram CBB female and she's been on that site for over a week at $300. My guess is that the snake you are referencing (600 gram yearling) might not sell at $650. Could be that the seller doesn't really want to sell her at all. My "better half" & I have agreed on a snake limit until we hatch out our first clutch... Otherwise I'd "go overboard"

{grumbling under my breath on my way to bed... there is NO such thing as "too many" snakes...}
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Tammy

"Give me the luxuries of life and I will gladly do without the necessities." ~~ Frank Lloyd Wright

There you go with that ad you saw once where someone was selling a 600g female for $650 again. Yes, you're right; that is high. I would pay that for a female that was 2000g but not 600g.
Whoever was selling that BP female was overpricing it but that dosent mean everyone is selling 600g females for $650 or higher. One example does not stand for the whole BP community.
Anyway, for someone who is going to wait until morphs reach less than $600 before you purchase them I suggest you pick a different hobby other than Ball Pythons. Have you ever heard the saying "You have to spend money to make money"?

The fact is, herpers worldwide are switching over to balls en masse...think about how much harder it is for someone starting out in balls today to find adult females compared to 5, 3 or even two years ago? Every day more and more pet stores are getting savvied up. The days of multiple $60 2000gram females are all but over!
I recently sold two CB, healthy, 1200 gram females for $1000 shipped in less than a week! And still, why is there any debate over what is the most undervalued, versatile, immediately-gratifying, hassell-by-passing "morph" in the world today?
a general rule of thumb for appraising a business is to add up whatever 4 years of Net Profit totals up to....well, assuming conservatively that the average co-dom morph hatchling sells for $3500 (pins,lessers,pastels, spinners, pewters, silver bullets, future combos etc. all averged out)...and out of 4 years an adult female produces two clutches of 6 eggs, out of 12 babies, 6 would statistically be $3500 a piece...totaling 6X $3500 = $21,000 BUT, the price of a healthy, fat, problem-free, 2000gram CB female ready to go is less than one twentieth of that! And i think most would agree that my numbers are fairly "conservative."
You can talk about all the mutations you want, I say the most undervalued "morph" in the world today is the adult female "Wild Type."

Prices too high......prices too high! Kills me.

Let me ask you one simple question...........

If I told you, all you had to do is invest $1000 and in 1 year I could turn that in to $10,000.....$20,000.....even $30,000/$40,000. How would you respond to that? Is that a good investment....would you keep that $1000, "in your pocket" or would you spend it on the high probabilty of the huge return????

If I have a Lesser Platty.....a Pin....A Mojave....Fire....spotnose....and more and more......and I don't have enough big girls to breed that male to.....Your trying to tell me not to invest in $500-$800 large female normals.

To me it's simple math.

Why do you think the prices are high on adult females??? Simple....because they are a huge key to producing a tremendous amount of sales dollars. You may let your pride keep the "Money in your Pocket" but your money won't make more money for you in your pocket. You need to invest!

PS....When those "over priced" normal females are posted I find one thing a bit strange......you never see them back up on the board again......hmmm.....why???

Must be because most people get the simple principle I have outlined above!
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Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles
pythonpassion@hotmail.com
www.pythonpassionreptiles.com

If you think they are overpriced, then do not buy them. As far as price gouging, $600 is not all that unreasonable if you have the right male(s). Do you? I remember a normal 2000 gram female for sale last year or so for $4K, yes, that is right, someone was asking $4000 for a normal female. Next time you see a normal female for $4K, you go right ahead and start a thread like this again, until then, you sound like you are whining.

Dave

My biggest female

Prices aren't going to get much better because there will be less and less normals coming from africa. So get prepared to see normals for higher and higher prices. Economics. supply down price up. supply up price down.

Scott

Let's see...

$20 for just hatched import female
$20-200 to provide her cage

$320 in rodents (52 weeks/year x 4 years x 1.5 rodents at $1.00 each)

10 minutes of care/week at $10.00/hour for four years: $346.00

Substrate: $80 for four years.

Misc. care/Vet stuff: $50 for four years (if you are lucky)

$900 to keep one female ball for four years.

My numbers aren't perfect. Some balls eat less (which means it takes them longer to get to "giant" size, so the number of years becomes longer. Point is - there is an investment to getting animals to 3000 grams.

Those who say $500 is too expensive should buy 40 baby females and start the long and expensive process of getting them to 2500 grams. In four years you will hatch out your first "$100 pastel" (And, by the way, still make a boatload of money on pastels if you get all your girls gravid with those three $200 males you buy this season!).

Girls are the key, without them it doesn't matter if you have a $25,000 male - you can't make babies.

Christy

"Girls are the key, without them it doesn't matter if you have a $25,000 male - you can't make babies."

The same could easily be said of the males, too.

Chris
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mean people suck

it appears that we've had at least three spontaneous virgin births so far this year (if my count is correct). OK maybe not births yeet - but clutches from virgin girls.

LOL
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Tosha

"One of these days i am going to wake up..look around...and realize my place looks more like "Ace Venturas"s than my own." Coldthumb

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul "JP"
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 lizard rescued from vicious feline

specially if they come out as pieds LOL
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Nita Hamilton
--------------
Ball Pythons

Who is "we"? And how do you know they were virgins?

Chris
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mean people suck

LOL, ok maybe they weren't virgins :-D, but they hadn't been sexually active for several years according to the owners. so that still makes for immaculate conception. And I'd still like to know what became of those. Did we get baby balls with halos? OK, I better knock it off before I get struck by lightening.

Quig

"LOL, ok maybe they weren't virgins :-D, but they hadn't been sexually active for several years according to the owners. so that still makes for immaculate conception."

No. That only makes for a new sperm storage world record. =)

Chris
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mean people suck

Extreme muscle control eh? God, that hurts just thinkin' about it

Quig

We refers to the ball python community. And two or them claim that they both had the snakes since hatchlings and they had not been around any other snakes. Those were both older snakes if I remember corrrectly. The other one I read about on another board and don't remember the specific deatails, seems like it was a bit younger than the two presented here only 5 years old or so and had not been with any other snakes either - whether their claims are true or not who knows - but I think someone pointed out that other species of snakes have been know to do the same thing so it's quite possible. All of these eggs laid after mine which aren't due to hatch until next week - so they wouldn't have hatched yet.

But I was just goading you (LOL)...
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Tosha

"One of these days i am going to wake up..look around...and realize my place looks more like "Ace Venturas"s than my own." Coldthumb

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul "JP"
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 lizard rescued from vicious feline

Since we are talking about Immaculate conception, I bought a 3200 gram female from a private owner last May 2004. She was his only snake and pet for that matter. She had never been introduced to a male and assuming there would be no reason to palpate her in June, I didn't and on September 13th 2004 she dropped 6 eggs. They hatched out on November 9th, all at 100 grams plus and a total of 0.6 babies. All looked like mom with a jungle pattern. All were big and all were females. Call it what you want, rare, but it happens.

Jeff
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Drake was owned by a family for 10 years. As far as they knew snake was a male. The kids went off to college and the dad decided to move across country and didn't want to take the snake with him... so we ended up with it. Our understanding is the snake was an only pet and never been around other snakes. We got the snake in Feb '04. I never thought at the time to find out if they had raised the snake from a hatchling or if they had bought it already grown. There is some scarring on the snake to suggest the slightly possiblity of being wild caught or possibly just bad experiences with live food. I was mostly concerned on getting the snake officially into our hands. It was noticeably underweight and dehydrated with skin hanging so you can tell the dad hadn't been doing much of a job of keeping the snake fed or cared for with his kids not around to do the work themselves. He had even claimed it would only eat mice - never rats and would only eat live food. I've been feeding it frozen/thawed rats/mice no problem from the get-go. I've been favoring rats over mice and the snake is now sorta turning her nose up to large mice if I am short on rats... just gives me a sad look before finally sighing and relunctantly eating the mouse LOL. Drake weighed in a little over 3.5 lbs. I spent the following year getting her back up to a decent weight where the skin wasn't hanging anymore... within a year she managed to exceed 5 lbs. This past March she went off feed for the first time since we took her in. Later I noticed ovulation and at that point knew we had a female for certain. July 17 she laid a clutch of 8 eggs. It's been two weeks and the eggs are now going moldy/bad - not fertile. I will declare them officially bad come trash day later in the week. I had been hoping for some miracle babies to develop though I knew the odds were against it. Less than a week after laying the eggs she slammed down two rats and a large mouse and is now getting dull with a skin shed coming up.
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_____

PHWyvern

np
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Nita Hamilton
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Ball Pythons