Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Your deleted post was very interesting about snakes living in colonies rather than lone wanderers and that when one is removed it's part of a whole etc.

I appreciate you putting forward these observations. It carries more weight when you have the feild work to back it up rather than TFH quotes.

Have you ever thought to put a group of animals in a large wall sized giant "Ant Farm" and watch the interactions of who mates who etc.? Sounds like an interesting project given your observations. Good luck. Thanks for sharing your opinions.

Hi Bob, I see I can still post, hahahahahahahaha.

Actually I did that years ago. In fact I took it a step farther then that.

Thru out my life, I concentrated of a certain species or another. I would work that species both in nature and in captivity. I would pick like behaviors and try to let them express them.

At one time, I did that with pyros, as pyros are nearby, 35 miles. I look for breeding centers, hubs, family groups, whatever the heck you want to call them. these groups or hubs may be as close as a few hundred yards apart. Well, I would watch these animals pair up. If undistrubed, they find the same mates at the same place every year. I would find where they nested. And watch the babies come out. Etc etc. I would do this with my own captives. For instance, watching how different a female behaves around a male she was raised with, as opposed to a male thats unknown to her.

We all understand snakes combat dance. Yet, I have to question why. As we find adult males together all the time. yet no combating. Who are they combating????????

To shorten this up, I have done this with numerous species of many reptiles across the country and the world.

So you say, raise kingsnakes together, yup, thats what I said. Its very easy, they do not eat eachother. Try this test, get a clutch of kingsnakes(Cal kings) and raise them together. They will not eat eachother unless starved. Remember, you must understand reptiles have degrees of hunger, just like you do. They can be hungry, really hungry, starving and starving to death. If you starve your snakes, of course they will eat eachother (You can ask more about this on another thread) Now do that with two clutches. Then place one king from clutch A into clutch and one from clutch B into clutch A. What you will see, is the introduced individual will be quickly consumed. To understand this better is to understand, reptiles do not live by our rules. If its not one of us, its not us. Its something else. For kingsnakes, that means food. The problem for most is, again they use human values on snakes. They do this with judging hunger. Snakes do not have to become skinny and emaciated to be starving. Consider, when they are hungry in nature, they have two very important choices. They can find food, or lower their metabolism. Both controll hunger. In captivity, they cannot control their hunger, you do, and normally only with food, NOT with the ability to lover their metabolism. So before to attempt this test, learn to control and understand what hunger means to a reptile.

Back to groups, colonies, hubs, etc. The last few years I have posted pics of this with gila monsters. I showed pics of lots and lots of pairs, and gravid females, females ovulating, groups,etc, all in nature. I have watched these groups for 26 years. Some of the gilas and been around a couple decades and still go the the exact same place, year after year.

Back to kingsnakes, All species of kingsnakes that I have looked at do this. From all the montanes to calkings to mexicana(blairs) etc.

Sorry, back to your question, Yes, I have done that long ago, thats where I got this crap I try allow folks to be aware of. There is more to these snakes then, one in a sweater box, then introduce a male, then quasi-nest them in a rubbermaid(make sure you take the water bowl out) etc etc etc. Thats robotics compared to life. Life is not robotics. Snakes are alive.

Below someone said, I was known for breeding monitors with unconventional methods. That had to make me laugh a lot. First, there was no conventional methods, so it would be hard to make that call. Then I used the exact same approach I use/used, with kingsnakes. Give them choices, raise them together and feed them when hungry. So I produced many world first breeding, thru multigenerations, of many many species. All with unconventional methods. How funny is that? I even had a stack of boards named after me. ITs know as Retes boards, funny but I first used that with pyros. Its design is to mimic a stack of tin or wood, you know what I am saying here. hahahahahahahahahaha Why do snakes use tin piles or wood piles???????????? Sorry for being so long, so long, FR

np
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www.BugChick.com

chickabowwow

Thanks Frank, I appreciate your insights and experience. Mulling this stuff over is how we learn. Stay well.
Bob.

Snakes live in tin and wood piles cause they are smart. The ones that live there have been exiled from their family groups. Sort of like a snake penal system, and these individuals got life sentences. They know that WE will go to a wood or trash pile because most of us can't figure them out enough to hunt them in normal conditions. They know that if we continue to have some success we won't figure out where the Big numbers and groups are.

Okay. Just kidding.

However, Frank's post above, like others he has written, should make everyone think. These are complex, intelligent, social creatures. Not just kingsnakes either. Many many creatures are doing stuff like this. Look what is just now being proposed with white sharks!!! Just fifteen years ago they were thought to be lone rogue predators. Now... after someone had the OPEN mind to look... they have documented single gender groups, hunting groups, social groups, one researcher is talking about them having good and bad moods (I don't want to be around a white shark in a bad mood), and behaving differently when they hungry (go figure), etc.

Why is this so hard for us to embrace??? Why do we not give snakes more credit? I know a lot of you reading are open to the idea that these behaviors occur in snakes. LOOK for them. They do.

Just an example from my collection. I have a group of 3.4 graybands that are maintained individually except during breeding trials. Before last year I always gave each male the opportunity to breed each female. I never watched them as I got good results. Last year I tried some controlled pairings and there was one of the males that would not breed with any female except for one despite the fact that the other females were ready and bred by other males at the same time that this one male would not breed them.

Not too long ago, maybe 6-8 months, a man posted a picture of a bunch of Kingsnake siblings he housed together. (Gray-bandeds?)
Horrified, I replied, asking him to separate them!

He replied with tremendous insight about how he had raised all the sisteers together with no problem, even during feeding sessions. He made a point of saying that they had always lived together - with no conflict at all.

FR may have insight into something very overlooked by most People & Humans: Maybe reptiles can be colony animals in the right situation. (Very true of burrowing tortoises, and hibernating snakes.) Maybe they do recognize their own and not be aggressive, like a street gang, yet would attack a newcomer not already known to the group.

Having learned that snakes are much more intelligent & alert than people think, and that each has a distinct personality & preferences, I'm open to new discoveries from the reptile world.

Why,in olden times, before we knew you weren't suppose to do it, we all kept multiples together!!! I still have an old polaroid somewhere of my nephew standing next to a cage with a banded from Brea, a 50-50 from that road going out toward Joshua Tree, a striped/banded from above Temecula and a blk/white desert from just below the scissors in Borrego. Kept them like that for about two years. Use to keep my boas and pythons the same way. I got some of my worst bites trying to seperate them at feeding (did I say I was fat, dumb and stupid as a teenager too?!?!?). Frank suggests an intriguing idea.

Pat

i believe somewhere on bob applegate's web page he mentions that he keeps some of his kings in colonies...
db

Is its not that complicated. Ever watch king snakes breed? In my experience at least the much larger male grabs on to the female behind the head, overpowers her and ultimitely rapes her. I don't see much selection on her part!

I bet the same thing happens in nature. Bottom line, top dog gets what he wants. The reason you may see several males at one locale without combat is they have already sorted the hierarchy thing out. Think about it. What we see is only a snapshot. When the time of year is right and reproductive mates find each other, breeding occurs. I doubt if any female snake is crawling around from one end of the cabbage patch to the next looking for Mr Right. Seriously, these are snakes that breed in sweater boxes. Phil

They breed in sweater boxes because thats all you give them to breed in.

The same thing would occur in humans without choices. (I.E. prison)

Your example, "sex in prison" is what they do. Big snake takes what it wants from smaller snake. Watch your snakes. C'mon now, Lampropeltis reproduction is not rocket science. It is what it is. Plastic box, hay field, it probably matters little. Do you think that if a female king does not come across ALPHA male she doesn't reproduce that year? Field studies have shown that Lampropeltis is an annually reproductive species. To think that a female may go through a selection process before she decides she has found the perfect guy is pretty funny. On the flip side, I would be willing to bet that a male will at least attempt to breed any female he tracks during this time and if he is larger and stronger than the female (which is usually the case) he will consumate this union. Female willing or not. Phil

You keep using words like probably, may, or could, or I bet, etc etc.

My explainations are from real obvervations. Not guessing what may or may not happen. They indeed pair up well before they cycle. They indeed stay together for long periods of time.

And no, they cannot force a female to breed if she is not willing. Ask all the folks who have forced breedings and no eggs. Also in nature, the female is not stuck in the same box and can and does squeeze into holes and places males cannot follow. In this, you miss the entire point, you offer no choices and expect them to do something different. Think about it. They will only get away, if they can actually get away. But you prevent that, then make an observation.

Your observations are indeed prison cell interpitations. Of course, the female cannot go anywhere. How about a little testing, give a unwilling female the ability to get away and then you can make another observation or statement. FR

A biologist from either Oklahoma or Oklahoma state(national champs wrestling)(went and saw them do it) His name I believe is Charles Carpender, he wrote some papers on colubrid reproductive behaviors back in the mid seventies. He described many basic behaviors. Of which Cloacal gaping is one atributed to receptive females and tail wagging is atributed to non receptive females. Indeed, they have behaviors to either copulate or not.

You do understand, that copulating has no effect what so ever, if the female has not cycled. When she cycles she emits pheromones, this attracks and keeps the male interested. So raping, as you put it, would be of no use for reproduction. But I am sure you know this. You can tell when a female has cycled as you can palpate ovum. Or see her cloacal gaping.

In my experience, females are very very choosy early in their cycle, but towards the end they will breed a doorknob(any old thing) This is useful when crossing snakes. But again I am sure you already know this too. Good luck and please look up those papers. Maybe HKM will find them for you, hes good at that. FR

Yeah, I'm with you on all that. My point was a cycled female which is attracting males via pheromone trail will probably get bred once tracked by a suitor that can close the deal. A reproductive female snake, much like a dog or cat is driven by an innate behavior and will submit to the process which is necessary for procreation. Survival of the fittest? In a way. Reproduction in king snakes is both straightforward and at times a little brutal. To me, the selection is more of the males role, and his ability to deliver is only limited by his dominance and good fortune at tracking potential mates. Phil

What your missing is this, on our site, and with pyros, lyresnakes, diamondbacks and gilas, all meet up with their selected male, well before they cycle, thus eliminating the ramdom factor. I have pairs that have same mate for decades(gilas) and for five to eight years, various snake species.

Once I had this discussion with a Monitor biologist and author, Daniel Bennett, I said they live in pairs and he said they simply bump into eachother in the dark(joke, random) So he came out and I showed him pairs of all sorts of reptiles, one type was Desert Tortosises. That was about eight years ago, Those tortosises are still together to this day and have been ever since. Let me see if I can find a pic.

Heres a pic of a pair of gilas, that stay together, for decades.

heres a pair caught in the act

With our diamondbacks, here in arizona, they gather in the fall in breeding groups, these groups normally number from five to 25 or so, there are a number of males and females in these groups. The Same males and the Same females return to a site, year after year.

heres a pair,

heres a pic of daniel bennett, on our study site,
Enjoy the pics, FR

Neat pics FR! I have heard of others speak of mate fidelity in some other species of reptiles. Most recently from a friend of mine that breeds chondro pythons. I used to keep the aquatic turtle Sternotherus minor and over the years of watching their interaction in large quarters I felt convinced that pair bonds were formed couples hung out with each other and would even copulate randomly throughout the year. What I was referring to primarily in this discussion was getula complex snakes. I could be totally off base but from what I have seen with them their instincts appear to be more primal and less discrete. I will say this though. Many times in the spring of the year I have come across sexed pairs of kings sharing the same piece of artificial cover. It is difficult to interpret what all is going on there. Whether these snakes have just bred, are preparing to breed, or just getting to know each other better beforehand. No doubt there is more to learn. I think a telemetry study would be interesting to see how close this association is throughout the breeding season and beyond. Phil

Yes sir, I do appreciate your comments. this is about kingsnakes. And yes, I have found kingsnakes to be exactly the same. Both in nature and in captivity. The problem is, when I was studying kingsnakes in nature, I did not carry this dang digital camera. Also, they are much harder to photograph in pairs as they normally live underneath something. So to lift a board or rock and pick up a pair and photograph, is not much in the way of proof. On the monitor forum, I actually found pairs under cap rocks, lifted the cap and took pics, they did not believe it. Of course those folks believe monitors never get within ten meters of eachother, they must have very long genital organs.

The best way to understand how they pair is very anthropromorphic(sp really bad) They do something like what humans do, a certain percentage of the population pairs up and are very regular, like the pics I showed. Other parts of the population do not breed, what so ever, they spend their lifes looking for a mate. Of course others find temporary mates and produce here and there. Its important to understand, reptiles are success driven, that is, if they find a good food source, they return to it. If they find ten food sources that provide food at different times, they will return to them when they are ready(ripe) With mates, I imagine, its sorta the same. Its most common they stay in pairs, but without question, there are trios as well. But what its not is, a male wandering around knocking up females. The reason I say this is, when males find a producing female, they spend months around her. Which eliminates the ability to fertilize lots of females.

On the monitor forum I tried to use birds as an analogy. Blackbirds, sparrows, etc, live in flocks, yet nest in pairs. And yes, they normally bond to a female(as long as it works) There are other birds, that nest in pairs and do not live in colonies. This is the same with snakes. They have a wide varity of pairing and nesting and breeding. Depending on species.

With kingsnakes, ratsnakes, montane rattlesnakes, lyresnakes, groundsnakes, tantilla, they indeed live in colonies and breed in pairs, yet, others like gophersnakes, glossys, longnose and others have not been found in colonies, may be different.

Why we have a need to make it all or nothing, has nothing to do with reptiles or any dang animal.

Now try to understand this, when a individual snake finds a mate and successful reproduces, its behavior is to repeat that, so they return to, or stay with that mate. Even more important is successful nesting sites. As I have said, nesting in nature is NOT about hatching eggs, but ABOUT, allowing neonates to survive. Let me use a gross comparison, If a fly does not place its eggs on a corpse, the maggots will indeed hatch and die, they must be laid in conditions that allow hatching and conditons for the neonates to survive, in the flys case, a corpse. With reptiles, if the neonates do not survive, all the hatching in the world is of no benefit. So the area around the nest, MUST provide the basics of life for neonates. Which you must understand, is not the same requirements as for adults. The question of importance is, which is the most important in that population?

These dens/hubs/population centers/colonies/family groups. are very simple to explain, they have found areas that support success and they center their population around these areas. But is does not prevent individuals from exploring for new areas, in fact, this is mandatory. The question is, how much or how little to these explorers contribute to the population.

I am sure as a collector, you go to hot spots to hunt kingsnakes, you know some areas are better then other areas. And you know that even in the exact same habitat, that some areas are really good and others not so good. So indeed, if you have experienced this, you are locating hubs(areas of dense populations) and do not realize it. If you investigate further, you may be able to find the exact center, which has a very dense population. With kingsnakes, thats year a round. In these areas you will find evidence, like eggs, hatched or not, pairs, sheds by the ton, etc. You will find adults and babies. Until you find this, your naive to this happening in nature.

Also, until you tested this in captivity, your naive to this as well. Try raising them in groups or pairs and then see if you experience rape. Its very simple, if you do not try it, you will not know.

Now a question for you, you mentioned that you think kingsnake breeding is based on males raping females. Let me assume you have actually bred a number if snakes. I have to ask, if rape is the method, then why do males have an elaborate mating ritual?????? this is a really good question. Cheers FR

great stuff there frank GREATSTUFF!!!,,,,,,,,thomas davis

I do appreciate your isights and I find this to be good discussion. Now to address a few of these issues.

< Also, they are much harder to photograph in pairs as they normally live underneath something. So to lift a board or rock and pick up a pair and photograph, is not much in the way of proof. >

I agree. The question I have is what is the right interpretation of this association when found in this manner. Pre copulation, post copulation or an actual pair bonding as you suggest? Unfortunately we can only speculate as to the very nature of what we are witness to. A snapshot of an instance into their world.

< Its important to understand, reptiles are success driven, that is, if they find a good food source, they return to it. >

Agree completely.

< But what its not is, a male wandering around knocking up females. >

This I didagree with. If you examine either live kings found on the crawl or examine DOR's during the spring breeding season you may note that a disproportianate amount of those snakes are male. This suggest these snakes are actively searching for mates and following pheromone trails. Females on the other hand are generally much more sedentary.

< Your nesting observations >

I think this is a good accessment but much of this is driven by the particular environment of any given population of kings. In the arid southwest I can see the need to be very selective to avoid desication of the nest. There is different criteria for other locales and in the humid southeast other threats exist. In some instances the perfect conditions exist for reptiles to nest and I have seen many species doing so in a given area that provides optimum conditions. In our area this is often forest clearing or rocky hillsides with friable soil and a southern exposure. An abundance of small prey items is also generally evidenced.

< I am sure as a collector, you go to hot spots to hunt kingsnakes >

I am not a collector, I am a field herper. I have collected some snakes for my private collection over the years but that is it. As an example, I have seen 62 live kings in the field thus far this year. I have collected only one of these and this was because the property owner told me to either take it or he would kill it.

< As to hubs and population densities. >

Yes, I know of areas where king snakes are the dominant form of snake. The habitat is much different here however and the kings are not linked to specific habitats (riparian corridors for example in the west). Our higher humidity levels enable king snakes to frequent any place within their range in which the essentials for their existence is in place. Food, shelter, mates, etc... The kings here do not stay in the same place year round. Certain parts of their home range offer different things at various times of the year. For example, kings will often congregate in numbers early in the year at open areas that get much sunshine and have good opportunities to thermo-regulate (i.e. roofing tin). Later in the year when ambient temperatures are higher there is no need for these snakes to stay here and compete with each other for what ever food resources are available. They disperse throughout the habitat and are found solitary after this point in the year. The fall may bring them together at these sites again where they can gain additional warmth and eventually hibernate in the labrynth of rodent burrows beneath the tin. Also, though more abundant is some areas than others our king snakes do not live in isolates. In suitable habitat they exist contiguously from one end of the state to the other. I fully expect to see a king snake at any place I visit and often I succeed. I have seen king snakes here in dozens of counties in a wide variety of habitats from upland forests to low lying swamp areas and every place in between. These are good sized active snakes and they move through the habitat.

< Now a question for you, you mentioned that you think kingsnake breeding is based on males raping females. Let me assume you have actually bred a number if snakes. I have to ask, if rape is the method, then why do males have an elaborate mating ritual?????? this is a really good question. >

I think once again it depends on the circumstances. I think what a female wants for the preservation of the species is to breed with the largest most successful males in her range. From an evolutionary perspective this would only make sense. When a ripe female is encountered by a large male he quickly subdues her and she submissively allows copulation. I have not witnessed the sex act in nature with king snakes so I can only infer as to what occurs. Snakes are generally startled upon being discover in nature and quickly go into escape or defence mode.I have bred kings for years in captivity and my observations have been the foreplay stage is generally very brief. Within minutes the male simply grabs the female in his jaws and begins tail searching. I would imagine there are some really cool male combat encounters that take place in nature though where the big males dictate the action. Phil

Me too, So please take it for what its worth.

You asked, The question I have is what is the right interpretation of this association when found in this manner. Pre copulation, post copulation or an actual pair bonding as you suggest? Unfortunately we can only speculate as to the very nature of what we are witness to. A snapshot of an instance into their world.

I do not think any of this is the right interpitation, only the most current interpitation. Right or wrong are temporary events or thoughts.

You asked, If you examine either live kings found on the crawl or examine DOR's during the spring breeding season you may note that a disproportianate amount of those snakes are male. This suggest these snakes are actively searching for mates and following pheromone trails. Females on the other hand are generally much more sedentary.

If you observe even further, you will find that the majority of these males have undeveloped gonads. They are stressed out individuals without a home range, being bounced from place to place. And I will guarantee, females will indeed bounce a male. Then of course there are strong males searching for, and this is key, "unattached" females. This is commonplace. Again, I ask, does it have to be one or the other? The reason I ask is because its not one or the other. The important question is, which part is the most successfull, that is, does one of these parts have more responsibility in successful recruiting????? Hahahahahahaha what is unsuccessful recruiting?

If I would to make a guess, I would say, these hubs of bonded pairs are responsible for 80% of the recruiting, even thought, they also only represent 20% of the population.

The real identity of these are also clear, the pairs are colonizers and the wanderers are range extenders. Indeed, the hub or colony produces wanders to extend the range, these more often fail or succeed on a temporary basis. That is, they are in search of an area that will support a hub of their own.
Because these wanderers are often in marginal habitat, they are often given up to poor conditions, that is, in poor years they die.

And yes, populations here are more distint and easy to see the seperations. But I have lived and studied snakes coast to coast. And found them to be the same.

I find your thoughts to have a old style basic biology paradign, as with the strong survive. That is true, but not in the way your taking it. The ones that survive are strong, but not necessarily in size and muscle. If what your saying was true, there would be a giant male surrounded by females, we would find these giant males commonly. In current times, snakes are getting smaller and smaller, as the habitat will no longer support large species or individuals. This works for any sized snake, large individuals are not the strongest, they are the exception and most likely the first to fail. They simply outgrow their nitche.

I think if we are going to continue, we need to approach one question at a time, as this is sprouting branches and soon will not be about what it started to be. FR

.

np

It does appear we are branching off into different directions from the original discussion but I have been enjoying this and I do think you make some good points.

< I do not think any of this is the right interpitation, only the most current interpitation. Right or wrong are temporary events or thoughts. >

I believe we are on the same page on this. I think that some want absolutes but in the real world I'm not so sure they exist. One of the things that keeps me going to the field is I learn something new just about everytime out. In some cases we may never know the answers and there may well be many different ones.

< If you observe even further, you will find that the majority of these males have undeveloped gonads. They are stressed out individuals without a home range, being bounced from place to place. >

I find this interesting and there may well be much truth in this. I can envision "bested" males leaving their home range after being ousted by the dominant male. I also have reason to believe that copulation sometimes occurs soon after spring emergence. I have found females that proved to be gravid as early as March which is the month in which kings come out in our area from winter cooling in our area. Often times I have seen large agregations of kings early in the year at a given site with pairs often being found beneath a single sheet of tin. This could suggest two things. 1) Your assessment of many of the male snakes found on the crawl and DOR may well be unsuccessful suitors that are setting out on their own. 2)It also suggest that if copulation is occuring soon after emergence most likely a long term pair bond is not formed. More like snakes emerging from winter hibernacula and waiting for the ensuing rut. The successful breed, the others move.

< And I will guarantee, females will indeed bounce a male. >

I agree and I have seen this in captivity. Only if the female is larger though or at least comparable size. I have not seen this otherwise. In nature the male kings I see are consistently larger than the females so I would suspect this happens less often. Like anything else, I'm sure there are exceptions.

< As to recruitment >

Yes, this is the paramount issue and the very essence of survival for a species.

< If I would to make a guess, I would say, these hubs of bonded pairs are responsible for 80% of the recruiting, even thought, they also only represent 20% of the population. >

I am not convinced of this when applied to king snakes. One of the things that make these snakes so successful so they may enjoy coast to coast distribution is they are both habitat and dietary generalist. This has served them well. Show me a snake that occurs within the rigid confines of a narrow habitat clime and I will accept that as a colonial snake. In my experience king snakes are often found in so called edge habitat. Where the field meets the forest, where the marsh meets the agricultural field, where the upland ridge meets the hay field and so forth. This adaptibility precludes the necessity to colonize. I can envision the transient males wondering off in pursuit of mates but less so wondering into marginal habitat. For kings at least, in the natural world marginal habitat does not exist.

< I find your thoughts to have a old style basic biology paradign >

This is probably true. I do try to infuse my own experience into my opinions though. And like I conceded, there probably are few absolutes.

< The ones that survive are strong, but not necessarily in size and muscle. If what your saying was true, there would be a giant male surrounded by females, we would find these giant males commonly. In current times, snakes are getting smaller and smaller, as the habitat will no longer support large species or individuals. This works for any sized snake, large individuals are not the strongest, they are the exception and most likely the first to fail. >

I disagree on this point as well. If the human factor is subtracted from the equation snakes in the wild grow to be large and robust. By this I mean early demise from vehicular mortality and wanton slaughter by man. I choose to herp in remote areas and those that have seen my field herping posts can attest that we find some big healthy looking snakes. road side and transitional sites are less apt to produce large specimens but this has less to do with selective pressure and more to do with closer proximity to man. Only this past May my field partner Will Bird and myself found the largest L. calligaster known to science (56.25" ). This will be published in the Sept edition of the Kansas Journal of Herpetology. We know full well we have seen L.g.nigra that far exceeded the maximum record length of 58" but failed to report it. We have decided to make good on this though and and plan on documenting the next really big one we find.

Once again, enjoying the conversation FR. I wish there was more of this on this board. I in no way are implying you are wrong. Only relating my observations where they contrast. Phil

Tsk..Tsk..Phil...Where's your sense of romance? LOL

I really envy folks like you and Phil who can go out and do feild work and check these things out in the wild rather than in cages. I have a freind in N.C. and I thought next year I would try to get together with him, grab a permit and look for Easterns. I hope you guys appreciate the blessing you have. Stay well.

Bob, it is a blessing for sure to be able to enjoy the field experience! Here is a look at a gravid female timber we found yesterday while out. This is number 17 on the year for us. Yes, we are very fortunate indeed!

Good luck in N.C. I have thought about taking a trip there next year myself. Phil

lol! I know it sounds horrible, but it sometimes takes me a few minutes while breeding my kings to decide whether they are getting it on or trying to kill each other. A friend of mine bred her Cal kings for the first time this year and asked me for some advise. I told her to watch her snakes closely through the entire process though this may take hours. Upon introduction breeding soon commenced and all was well for several hours. My friend had to make a quick errand and felt it would be okay to run to the corner store for a few minutes. When she came back her female had killed the male and was in the process of wolfing him down! In her snakes the female was slightly larger than the male. She went on to lay a nice clutch of eggs a month later. Dang I love these snakes! Phil

Musta been when o' them rare Black Widow Cal. kings.

Yeah, from the people I've spoken to and pics I've seen, it seems like N.C. has some beautiful Easterns although I am presently downsizing and not looking for any more captives I would sure love to take some pics and post them if I could figure out all of my new digital camera LOL. Thanks for sharing the pic.

I am curious if you have ever seen a female devour a male after breeding in the wild? We hear of this happening from time to time in captivity but I do not recall hearing of this ever being observed in the field? Have you ever heard of or witnessed this yourself?? Tom Stevens

Great question, the answer is no, but, How would I know if one ate one from its own colony or another colony Other then if the snake was tagged(we have lots of tagged snakes)

Now for another problem(we have lots of those too) During the breeding season when they are often seen right next to eachother, they rarely feed on anything.

On the other hand I do have a story about Greenrock rattlesnakes, that is very funny.

We were on our field study, and I was with a captain at the fire dept. My Partner is also a captain(HKM) I heard a buzz and noticed a young male moving towards his hole. I caught him and call Joe over to help take data. Normally HKM takes all the data, hahahahahahahaha sucky job. Anyway, we were busy taking data, part of that is to palpate for ovum, babies, food bolus, etc. This male have recently consumed an adult Yarrows spiny. While we were measuring and weighting this individual, I heard something. I said, that was not this one, and I looked over to where the hole was. Another snake was sneaking into the hole. All I heard was a click. This indivdual was a matching female, same size, same color, same lenght and the scary part, the same food bolus. It too had just consumed an adult yarrows spiny. Both snakes had found food at the same time, they were the same size, they were a sexual pair and both were not adults.

Consider everything we do is odds, this event beat all sorts of odds, as far as any of this being random or unintentional. FR