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Please understand, I am not attempting to convince you of anything, nor do I want to try and prove anything to you.

Consider, to educate is to make aware. Its not to convince. For you do deny what I say would be foolish, as would you simply taking my word for it. I do not want you to believe me either.

I can only hope to allow you to keep this information in your mind. One day, you may see events or evidence that leads to this stuff, it will be in your mind already.

One of the problems is lack of awarness, most field herpers look for snakes, when they find snakes, they look no further. I do not look for snakes, I look for what they do. I do not rest until I find the evidence of life events. Which includes, eggs, babies, sheds, pairs etc. In other words, if you don't look, don't expect to find it.

And yes, my first experiences were purely accidental. But I soon realized, it was not an accident, only me finding it was. Once you understand what to look for, finding it is not a problem, in fact, its easy. So easy, you will kick yourself in the butt for not seeing it in the first place. It just took time.

While I believe you are an avid field herper, I too am avid, only I have been avid for about 50 years, continiously. So please understand, this stuff did not pop up overnight. FR

FR, please don't misunderstand. I am in no way discounting your field observations. For that I have great respect. I have been doing this for a while myself, and I am the first to admit I have much to learn. We all do. Thats what keeps our interest up and that why we continue to go out. Please also understand I am not the casual weekend herper and that my true interests lies in learning what I can about the natural history of the species I seek. At the cost of much personal sacrifice on my behalf I am willing to share some of these observations here. At the end of the day all I can expect is achy knees, scratches from thorns, sunburn, sleep deprivation, a loss of cash and if I'm successful a few pics and some memmories that I will cherish. We can all learn from each other since our experiences may be different. This is a good situation and we should embrace this. At the end of the day I often return with more questions than answers. Thats the way it should be Show me a field herper that knows it all and I will show you a person that is clueless. Phil

on the previous thread. All the best! Phil

np

Phil, Just want to say I really enjoyed your response. It's people like you that I feel privileged to meet and herp with out in the field. I find it interesting that some of the posters on here used to be avid field herpers and have since gotten bored with it only to find more interest in breeding morphs and such. I, like you, find myself still learning so much being out in the field and it seems like the more I get out, the more there is to know. I don't think any of us will ever know it all and the biggest enjoyment is the path on trying to find out what you can. For me, this will take years to learn what I can. And after all the fun I've had so far, there's plenty more of it ahead of me! Keep up the great work you're doing. I and others are certainly enjoying what you're doing and the fact you're sharing it with the rest of us.
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My signature is pure...the purest of them all.

Thanks for the kind words bro..

I look forward to our next outting in the field. Phil

I have been at work, and in New Mexico in the field for the last few days and missed Frank and Phil’s great discussion. There should be more discussions like this on these forums!!!

I would like to add that I believe what Frank has been saying will eventually pan out to be the truth for most, if not all, snake species. I used to believe that what Phil is saying was the case. However, after what I have seen during the last ten years of a 20-year demographic study on ridge-nosed and rock rattlesnakes, I don’t get it anymore.

What I do get is: these two diminutive rattlesnake species do live in pairs all year long, with male lepidus sometimes leaving their partner females for short times during the fall (second?) breeding season. Do they leave them for the purposes of breeding other females? I have not seen this, and I do not know. Do they all do the same thing the same way every year? No.

What I do get is: my questions have changed in scope and target throughout the course of this and other studies that I am involved with. I have recently learned things that were right in front of me for decades because I have changed my approach to inquiring about and understanding snake behavior. I believe they are complex intelligent creatures that learn and make decisions. I believe that “snake” is language we are just beginning to realize exists. I believe that they might live in family groups that have their own boundaries and cultures, and that these groups might exist in sympatry with other such groups (rattlefinches). I believe that a lot of this behavior is learned, not instinctive. I believe that there is complex parental care beyond the first ten days after birth. Since honestly opening my mind to any possibility, I have observations that could be interpreted as teaching. And there are more things too.

I am sort of another old fart with thirty + years studying rattlesnakes in the field, and more years than that on herps in general. Applying this change in mode of interpretation from animals that function from instinctive species determined parameters to accepting them as individuals with far more varied capabilities has opened the door for a lot of behaviors to fall right into my lap. I couldn’t see the forest for the trees.

I pride myself in being a good scientist and try to take that data as accurately as possible…. Behavior is always a tough beast. We struggle with understanding human behavior and communication. We have our work cut out for us with snakes.

How this applies to kingsnakes is that the little rattlesnake species I work with don’t do much in the way of moving around. They are easier to observe in undisturbed group settings. But in those species that do cover some ground, like diamondbacks, a lot of these traits are now being observed. In more highly vagile species like kingsnakes, it will be even tougher to qualify, much less quantify these types of behavior, until you have located and are right in the breeding / nesting group area. Once there, open your minds as well as your eyes. Frank did a long time ago.

Glad you enjoyed the discussion. I know I did! Having the opportunity to hear about personal observations made by those that spend time in the field is always valuable as far as I am concerned. I do wonder though if the montane rattlesnakes you have been studying would fit the criteria I laid out for populations of animals that may well be colonizers. Those for example that live in a specialized habitat. I can certainly see the advantage for those dietary or habitat specialist to have some sort of advanced social order. I am more reluctant to see this happening with dietary and habitat generalist such as getula. The reason for this is simple. No biological advantage can be gained for a species with such plastic requirements to lock itself into a formalized "hub" structure. In the natural world everything happens for a reason. I do agree with you. Interpreting behavior can be very challenging. I would also have to think that all populations of any given animal do not always necessarilly act the same due to varying environmental factors and the distinct set of pressures any group may have to deal with. I have no personal experience with California kings for example and have never visited the habitat they are found in. It would be wrong for me to try to speak with authority about what is going on with them in the natural world. My experience is with kings in the eastern U.S.,and in Ky in particular. These are snakes I know well and about these I feel I have learned much. There may be no absolute rights or wrongs in this discussion. Probably some of both. It shows we are thinking and trying to learn more. Thats what makes this so much fun and keeps our interest up! I agree that having an open mind is imperitive if we are to get closer to the truth. This goes for all of us. No one has all the answers. Of this I am sure. I certainly don't! I have to admit there is a side of me that would like for Franks notions to be right. His ideas are much more romantic than mine lol! Phil

Well said Phil, particularly about what we have to learn and what we don’t know. I completely agree with your statement “There may be no absolute rights or wrongs in this discussion.” That is one of the main points I am trying to make about snakes in general, and even more so, about the way in which we herpetologists are constantly trying to pigeon-hole their activities.

You mention that different populations may act differently “due to varying environmental factors and the distinct pressures any group may have to deal with.” True. I would add that different individuals or groups of individuals may act differently WITHIN a population for another variety of reasons related to, age, gender, reproductive condition, familial association or groups, etc. I would argue that these behavioral differences are also culturally induced, as well as possibly environmentally.

As for the montane rattlers being habitat and food specialized versus wide-ranging omnivorous getula, they may not be so much that way as you think? They are not truly habitat specialized as they occur from grassland all the way up to high elevation coniferous forest, and they eat pretty much everything (arthropods, reptiles, amphibians, mammals and birds). They truly differ from the getula snakes you describe in the amount of turf the cover. But don’t some of your snakes return to the same areas, winter refugia (I don’t use hibernacula: another discussion LOL!!), hunting spots etc? Who does the colonizing? How far do they go? Do they travel alone?

Where I tend to pigeonhole reptiles is as follows: reptiles need to thermoregulate to accomplish certain things (reproduction, digestion, required bodily functions) without overheating and freezing. They need to not drown or dehydrate in the process. They need meet other reptiles to make more reptiles. How they do all these things is what makes them all so interesting and individualistic. It would be great to break down the differences between the getula you know and the rattlers I have studied. I think there would be a lot of basic similarities. I do not know your eastern getula, but after what I have seen out here, I can’t help but wonder if the ground they cover doesn’t muddy up the picture somewhat when it comes to family groups, pair-bonding etc. Maybe I’ll have to start chasing those damn Masticophis around out here and look for the bahviors I have seen in crotalids!!! Geez, I am way too old for them!!! Thanks. Hugh

Hugh, thanks so much for the insights. It sounds like you are involved with some exciting work. I will admit that my view of the montane rattlesnakes is strictly from an outsiders perspective. Essentially just what I have gleened from the field guides and some of the herp literature out there. I cannot support it with hard data but I strongly suspect our timber rattlesnakes here in Ky are highly social anaimals. We have found pairs together under AC on a number of occasions and we know of rookeries where gravid females congregate and eventually give birth. The non gravid females and males take a different course and disperse to the feeding grounds in late spring. Once you get a feel for what they are doing and when you can get an idea of what their activity cycles are for the year. Though once widespread here their numbers have been reduced and they are for the most part restricted to heavily wooded upland areas. They don't seem to do well around disturbance. Of course most encounters with man ends in death for the snake.

It would be interesting to learn more about behavioral patterns in getula being environmentally produced or as the result of some culturally induced situation as you suggest. I would certainly say this is well within the realm of possibility. The very nature of getula would seemingly make this difficult to pinpoint though. Like I had mentioned to Frank there is no real marginal habitat for kings here. They thrive in all habitats provided the basic essentials for life is available, that being food, shelter, etc.. With the exception of very developed areas king snakes are a very common snake here. We can reliably see them in field, forest, marsh, upland knobs, mountains and so forth. They also do especially well in lightly diturbed places like abandoned farm sites and on the edges of agricultural fields. I think a telemetry study could be especially revealing and may shine some light on all of this. I would be very much interested for example if there is longterm pair association. I have seen no evidence of this here, but once again what we see is often only a glimpse into their world. The snakes do often return to prime areas to spend the winter. This we have seen. We have also noted many snakes at one site early in the year often times pairs being found together under a single sheet of tin. This is in late March to early April. Once the night time temperatures start rising we see fewer snakes at these overwintering sites and those seen are often in ecdysis. We then will start seeing some of the female snakes we saw in the early spring showing up at these sites while gravid from late May until mid June. After this time we may only see the occasional king snake at these sites, our guess is they may be raiding some of the rodent nest under the tin. We will also see the occasional other species drop in at these sites when the kings are seemingly away. October and November brings the big groups of kings back to these tin sites though for some reason we never see the same numbers as we do in the spring. Natural attrition that occured through the active season perhaps? It does make for some interesting speculation on exactly what is going on at these places. At one of these sites there was a very huge very beautiful male that really stood out. We saw this snake a number of times over several years and one day he looked so nice I could resist no longer and decided I wanted to add that snake to my collection. I took him home and set him up in the usual quarantine when it occured to me I should not have taken such an awesome snake out of the gene pool. I took the snake back the next week to release him under the same sheet of tin in which he was found, and much to my surprise there was another big snake there coiled next to one of the females I was familiar with. This new male snake was not quite as long but was a bit thicker and just as impressive as the one I was putting back. I was left wondering exactly what was taking place. If perhaps with the big resident male gone a nearby contender had drifted in? I also wondered what the reaction of the female snake was. I know I had seen her before and she was still at one of her usual hang outs for that time of year. Lots of interesting stuff goes on in these tin field I'm sure lol! The more I think about this the more i would like to have the opportunity to track a couple of these snakes for a couple of years. That would be interesting for sure! Phil