Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey everyone,

I went herping this weekend to one of the state parks here in Ohio as I stated in an earlier post. Like I said as well, I have never seen so many snake-hating people in one location. My friend was asked by a fisherman over across the river from where I was located, "Is he looking for snakes?", and when the reply was, "yes", he felt the need to ask, "Is he f***ing nuts!!??!!" "Why in the hell does he want to do that for??" At the same moment, you should have seen the looks on certain peoples faces when they found out that we were looking for snakes. They would give some of the most god-awful looks.

It's not that it necessarily bothered me much, but I felt that it needed defended to a point. Does anyone in here constantly come across ignorance to this level? Of course there are going to be people out there that thing we are wierd for our hobby and likings. Hell my own parents think that I am wierd and nuts!

I am just wondering what other people have to put up with for your hobby and love of reptiles or just snakes in general? How do you deal with it? Do you just ignore them, or do you attempt to educate them right there on the spot? Do you give a good defensive snarl or are you passive about it?

Just thought I would ask and see what others thought and have to deal with.

Thanks all! and Best Wishes,

Chris

I know what you are talking about Chris.. I use to get that alot... when looking for midland water snake,, people use to think i was crazy and were catching cottonmouths lol.. they think just because im 15 that i know nothing about snakes.. And my mom she is like that alot thinking im wierd and all lol... but I have changed alot of ppl in my neighborhood and now i get an call every week to pick up black rats and kings ect.. out of ppls yards..so everyone came around to respect me and my hobby...

zach

I have worked with people with snake phobias who came to my Zoo for help. Unless they activly seek to get over their fear and prejudice, they will often hold to their additudes in spite of any proof you give them to the contrary.

Its an ego thing. By having this fear they fit in their group (we all know only weird people keep snakes...right?). People will dodge the truth, because they are afraid of looking foolish and the truth is not as important as being right.

No one said the average person is that bright.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

It does to be more of an egotistical thing with people to a point. It gets really irritating. So many people are ignorant and most dont even TRY to learn.

It's a sad, sad world ya know....

Best Wishes,

Chris

>>I have worked with people with snake phobias who came to my Zoo for help. Unless they activly seek to get over their fear and prejudice, they will often hold to their additudes in spite of any proof you give them to the contrary.
>>
>>Its an ego thing. By having this fear they fit in their group (we all know only weird people keep snakes...right?). People will dodge the truth, because they are afraid of looking foolish and the truth is not as important as being right.
>>
>>No one said the average person is that bright.
>>
>>Frank
>>-----
>>"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

i go off about snakes and like tell them everything i know...not to show them up...but because im so exctied about herpetology i just HAVE to share it...and if they dont like it i just walk off,,,,well thats wat i do
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CKA

People have been socialized to hate or fear snakes since recorded history. Snakes are usually not food/utility animals, their habits make them "suspicious", their movements are often quick and unpredictable to the untrained observer, and many are dangerous. Not many animals have had as much superstition attached to them as reptiles and snakes in particularly. The book of Genesis uses the snake as a manifestation of satan. Pharaoh’s sorcerers turned their staffs into snakes as a symbol of dark power. One of the biblical plagues was frogs. It may seem irrelevant now but these traditional biblical attitudes have had a profound effect on how people even today are socialized to view snakes. Not because the bible is in any way bad thing but because these are often the first and only impressions people get of snakes.

Add to the mix all the superstitious folk lore and the portrayal of snakes in the media and you begin to realize what an uphill battle it is. Even though there is no logical reason to harbor a prejudice against snakes there is no shortage of negative influences inciting such prejudice. The few people on TV who do try to present snakes in a positive light usually come across as nuts themselves. [That Crocodile Hunter guy…yeah I went there.] It gets worse when you look at the contexts people often see of snakes as pets. When you see a snake fancier on tv it is often someone with lots of body piercings, tattoos, gothic personas etc. I am not denying all these nice people their rights to individual expression and so forth but these folks are often viewed as being alternative, eccentric, “weird” or shocking and their interests are not considered the community norm. If someone is seen “walking” their snake in public it is often (in my experience) these types of folks. These examples go on and on.

Bottom line: The socialization process most people go through incorporates many negative and dark attitudes towards snakes which are countered by few, if any, positive ones.

Side note: Look how many people hate cats or some other animal. I have encountered reptile people who harbor similar prejudices towards other animals that they complain exists against snakes.

Food for thought: For much of its history the Harley-Davidson was primarily associated with an “outlaw” and criminal aspect of society. Today their popularity and acceptance is experienced across the whole of society and the criminal element is viewed as a minority of those who ride them. Public attitude does change from time to time.

Disclaimer: No offense or prejudice against anyone’s personal lifestyle or interests was intended or should be interpreted. I am not implying that any of these groups are criminal or in any other way should be excluded from acceptable society.
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Randy Hallman

Damn that was good! Would you mind if I was to quote this on my website that I am working on? I will certainly give you full credit for it and will make sure that I include your disclaimer. After reading your post I decided to add an additional part to my website.

Thanks for your response, it was awesome.

Best Wishes,

Chris

>>People have been socialized to hate or fear snakes since recorded history. Snakes are usually not food/utility animals, their habits make them "suspicious", their movements are often quick and unpredictable to the untrained observer, and many are dangerous. Not many animals have had as much superstition attached to them as reptiles and snakes in particularly. The book of Genesis uses the snake as a manifestation of satan. Pharaoh’s sorcerers turned their staffs into snakes as a symbol of dark power. One of the biblical plagues was frogs. It may seem irrelevant now but these traditional biblical attitudes have had a profound effect on how people even today are socialized to view snakes. Not because the bible is in any way bad thing but because these are often the first and only impressions people get of snakes.
>>
>>Add to the mix all the superstitious folk lore and the portrayal of snakes in the media and you begin to realize what an uphill battle it is. Even though there is no logical reason to harbor a prejudice against snakes there is no shortage of negative influences inciting such prejudice. The few people on TV who do try to present snakes in a positive light usually come across as nuts themselves. [That Crocodile Hunter guy…yeah I went there.] It gets worse when you look at the contexts people often see of snakes as pets. When you see a snake fancier on tv it is often someone with lots of body piercings, tattoos, gothic personas etc. I am not denying all these nice people their rights to individual expression and so forth but these folks are often viewed as being alternative, eccentric, “weird” or shocking and their interests are not considered the community norm. If someone is seen “walking” their snake in public it is often (in my experience) these types of folks. These examples go on and on.
>>
>>Bottom line: The socialization process most people go through incorporates many negative and dark attitudes towards snakes which are countered by few, if any, positive ones.
>>
>>Side note: Look how many people hate cats or some other animal. I have encountered reptile people who harbor similar prejudices towards other animals that they complain exists against snakes.
>>
>>Food for thought: For much of its history the Harley-Davidson was primarily associated with an “outlaw” and criminal aspect of society. Today their popularity and acceptance is experienced across the whole of society and the criminal element is viewed as a minority of those who ride them. Public attitude does change from time to time.
>>
>>Disclaimer: No offense or prejudice against anyone’s personal lifestyle or interests was intended or should be interpreted. I am not implying that any of these groups are criminal or in any other way should be excluded from acceptable society.
>>-----
>>Randy Hallman

Feel free to use it. You may also just incorporate the concepts and reword them to fit your own needs and perspectives in which case no citation is necessary.
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Randy Hallman

Randy,

Thank you for the article. I probably wont make any changes to it as I think it is perfect just the way it is. If you wish to remain anonymous on my site then that will be fine, but otherwise I will give you the credit as I dont like taking credit for other peoples work/offerings.

Thanks again!

Chris

>>Feel free to use it. You may also just incorporate the concepts and reword them to fit your own needs and perspectives in which case no citation is necessary.
>>-----
>>Randy Hallman

In defense of the bible, it does describe the serpent as being the most subtle creature of the field. Which I take, is a compliment. Genesis also tells of a curse between the children of Eve and the serpent, that enmity shall exist between them. So I guess snake lovers like myself are not the children of Eve and the snake haters are. The fact that Eve is the mother of sin, I guess that is a positive implication.

Also in the new testament, one of the signs of the true people of god was that they would lift up the serpent.

What I love about Genesis is that it says Satan took the form of a serpent and tempted Eve.(loosely quoted)

If you commited a crime pretending to be be me, should I be punished for it?

The serpent (which was innocent) is punnished by the "all knowing God." (lol)

One of the proofs that the Bible was writen by men-Not by a God. And those men really didn't do their homework well.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

the implication is that Satan could not have used the serpents form without its permission. Which seems right to me, Satan has no power in this world but what we give him. As for all of serpents being curse as result one serpents actions being unfair, well the same can be said of humanity, we were all cursed banned from the garden and the tree of life as the result of the actions of Adam and Eve. So when you look at it from a biblical point of view, the serpent is curse for the actions of its ancestor, likewise are we cursed, that should make us brothers. As for the author of the bible and its infaliblity, well nothing in the hands of man is perfect, the bible as we know it contains many mistranslations from the original text. Some of them purposely to support a political agenda, for example in Genesis when god made Eve the original Hebrew word that was translated as "rib" actually meant "side" so imagine what world would be like today if for the last 2000 years Eve had been made from one side of Adam? as the bible actual depicts. Anyway my point is the bible is inspired of god not infalible. This is probably not the forum to debate it, we are way off topic, maybe we should start a "Herps in myth and spirituality" forum?

An interesting (forum)idea.

I don't buy into the guilty by permission thing though. Sounds like the old tired excuse "well she said it was ok...."

I think it is more the case that the Jews and early Christians were dealing with domminant cultures that revered snakes (Rome and Egypt as well as some other cultures held that snakes had powers over death, healing and immortality). The denouncing of snakes was as much political as anything.

You know, The legged serpent of Genesis brings to mind the dragon ships of Danish Vikings-though (aside from stories)I don't see where the relationship might have been made. Dragons often were considered legged serpents and the peoples raided by them in Europe and Asia thought they were devils. But if it were a reference to them it would have to been added later, since I am not sure Vikings existed that far back.

The Bible was rewritten several times including the King James in the 15th century (first time in English).

Christianity in particular has a history of vilifying other culture's Gods. Satan (with cloven hoofs and horned head) was actually modeled after the Greek god Pan and Saytrs (Fawns)which were lovers of women and wine-but harmless.

Another possibilty is the exploitation of the people's fear of Norther barbarians (Goths had horned helmets).

Lots of interesting areas to explore...

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

The dragon itself is an interesting creature, it appeared independly in the east and the west. In both the dragon symbolized natural forces. The difference however was that in the east the dragon was powerful but peaceful and wise, and in the west something to be slain, hordeing great wealth. Many western depictions also depict George the dragon slayer, the name George litterally means ground tiller.

What is interesting is that the serpents were there after cursed to crawl on their bellies yet snakes are well adapted to this and very "clean" as animals go. As for all snakes being punished for the action of one...remember that in Christian theology all of humanity is held responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve. The concept of original sin (and its atonement) is very significant. Regardless of whether the bible is to be taken literally, metaphorically, or contextually (I think I hit all the main schools there) it has had a profound impact on belief, culture, art, politics, superstition and folklore throughout the ages.
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Randy Hallman

I think you reiterated my point, also one could make the argument that Genesis is a very symbolic book and the serpent represents something other then an actual snake, Like a aspect of human nature? for instance. No one will deny that the garden is symbolic, the knowledge of good and evil is not an actual tree for instance. So why should the serpent be any different?

The existence of Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden, the tree of "life" and the serpent etc has been interpreted literally for centuries by many who view the bible as the word of God. Literal interpretation is not the only approach but it remains today one of the common schools of biblical interpretation.
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Randy Hallman

What really matters is not the question of whether Adam, Eve and all that is real or not. What matters is the persistant justification it gives to persecuting snakes.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Snakes have been used to illustrate hearts of men as in " you den of Vipers etc. but....

Snakes have been used to describe being intelligent/ street smart. " Be WISE as serpents yet as innocent as doves"

God used moses' rod and turned it into a bigger snake than the bad guys had and it even ate theirs.

Theres an Old testament writer that says there are things that are just too much to take in because of their coolnes. the way between a man and a woman, the way of an Eagle in the sky and the way of a serpent on the rocks.

We are told that God sent firey serpents to punish the folks wandering in the desert and he had a golden serpent raised on a pole and lifted up so that whoever had been bitten by the snakes could look at the serpent and through that act of faith be saved. Jesus also said that he would be lifted up like that snake in a similar way for people to express a saving faith.

If God were to hate snakes, why would he use them so often. I think he doesn'thate them. I think if you look at the entire book you get a bigger/ more balanced view than just simply one story being what ignorant folks use to back up their hatred of snakes.

IMHO. Bob.

God has a tendency to show grace. When we are told that the decree was to crawl on their bellies, was that severe punishment or a sign? We know that snakes do very well for themselves. Rainbows are also A sign. It doesn't mean they are "lucky/good or bad just a sign.Sometimes things are deeper than first glance. IMHO Bob.

I'll go you one better Bob. If your god hated snakes why would he create them in the first place?

If you check my posts above I did not say that your god felt that way.

What I did say was those who wrote the bible were dealing with powerful cultures (Egypt, Rome) that revered the snake-so they encouraged anti-snake prejudice just as they vilified the other cultures gods.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank, I did not read all the posts before writing. It was not aimed at anyone in particular. My personal view is to not see that God made snakes efficient predators, able to survive in all sorts of hostile environments with colors/patterns that native folks have used in art work, to not see how well they do what they do without limbs and upon closer examination to see their level of intelligence is trying to be blind to the obvious. They are neat animals! And if God watches over the birds of the air I think it's a fair assumption that that means he also cares about herps.

Just my 5 cents ( inflation and all lol.)
Bob.

My argument is that although people have used the story of Genesis to justify hating snakes, the real meaning behind the story of the serpent and the garden of eden has more to do with Human nature and less to do with an actual snake, and that the bible uses snakes symbolicly. They represent power, cunning grace. Sometimes negatively, sometimes positively. I was arguing that the bible isn't a work of ignorance, but rather that it meaning is lost on ignorant people, a that it, in no way supports a view of snakes being evil or bad.

I can agree that it doesn't paint snakes as just good or bad.
Happy herpin'
Bob.

The problem Bob, is that most people are familiar with Genesis but aren't familiar with the other passages thay are less often quoted from the pulpit..

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

That is a problem not just with herping but with everthing. If people bothered to understand the whole bible, rather then just taking a few verses out of context, then we would be living in a different world.

I agree guys, context is important. Stay well.
Bob.

and not a Bible commercial.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Hey, you were the one trying to make the bible responsible for ignorance. We are just presenting a different point of view.

This conversation was supposed to be about prejudice against snakes which the Bible obviously contributes to.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

here in vermont some enjoy killing snakes with shovels and nobody knows a thing about snakes, heres the perfect example most poeple around here think that greensnake, gartersnake, redbellied snake, ribbonsnakes and brown snakes are garden or gardener snakes and think they are venomous. they think the water snake is a water mocasin and the milksnake is a "checkerdadder". they think all snakes are mean and slimey and will bite you, i wont bother with the rest of the things they think.
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my addiction:
2 ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (maizy

Yes most people hate snakes. I never tell prospective girlfriends about my pets! Then once I have them back at my place I usually breach the subject and I have had a 100% success rate of converting them into becoming ok with snakes or liking them.

My parents refuse to come into my house, which is ok with me! People call me snake man and constantly make sexual innuendo type jokes about my snakes.

Oh well!

The word used for 'serpent' in the bible is often translated as snake, just because that is what is most closely connected with the word in english, and also due to tradition now. Originally, the word for serpent was much more closely related to 'dragon', 'crocodilian', or even just 'monster' (among other things). It wasn't really until english-speakers got their hands on it that Eve was assumed to have been tempted by a snake.

(Sorry to the crocodilian fans for trying to pass the buck, by the way ).

I thought that the "Crocodilian" like being, was referred to as the "Laviathan (sp?)"

>>The word used for 'serpent' in the bible is often translated as snake, just because that is what is most closely connected with the word in english, and also due to tradition now. Originally, the word for serpent was much more closely related to 'dragon', 'crocodilian', or even just 'monster' (among other things). It wasn't really until english-speakers got their hands on it that Eve was assumed to have been tempted by a snake.
>>
>>(Sorry to the crocodilian fans for trying to pass the buck, by the way ).

Funny how that translation thing works. its like the whole "immaculate conception" is based on Hebrew words that translate to call Mary "a young woman" (not necessarily a virgin). All depends on whose translating.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank alot was done in greek and Armaic I believe, don't let the translation controversy stuff so muddy the waters you lose site of the point of the writer.( not trying to argue with you, you are enititled and responsible for your own beleifs)

In christian/Jewish (Beleiver) stuff there is a sacredness about the blood of sacrifices ( by the way the old testament teaches respect for animals even if used for food/sacrifice) I don't quite get it, but it's there

Part of why it's such an important issue is that for Jesus to have been the once and for all sacrifice for mans fallenness it needed to be Gods blood.( Heavenly Father) A normal moral/upstanding/decent teacher kind of guy would not have had the OOmph to have died for the worlds wrongs. A noble thing to do as far as a man goes but just wouldn't cut it.

And like Paul said, if it wasn't for the God/Man rising from the dead this whole believer thing is nice but wouldn't mean much at all in the long run. Please don't misunderstand,I am not arguing or attacking what you say, just trying to shed some light on some of the whys you might not be familiar with.

Happy Herping. Bob.

As a veteran and a student of history I know a lot of brave men suffered more and died for less and they didn't need a God's blood to do it.

Our history is filled as well with people who have suicided in horrible ways to make their point. Many of these people we lable "fanatics" because they didn't subscribe to the popular beliefs of the moment.

All due respect but I ain't handin out roses for this one....

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

"No greater love does a man have then to give his life for his friends."~jesus. He wasn't the first or the the last to have such a love, but Jesus didn't just surrender to suffering and death. He gave up the ultimate reward for a sin free life which is life everlasting. That's a sacrifice no one else can make. He did it so we can claim his reward without having to do any of the leg work, such is grace. He was also ressurrected, which is just how you roll when father is numero uno. Not that this has anything to with snakes, but I just couldn't leave it hangin.

I'm sorry Frank, I'm a little slow today. I'm not quite gettin it. Absolutely no disrespect intended. Take care . Bob

The point I made above is that you don't need A god's blood to sacrifice yourself for others which is I understood what you implied in reguards to J.C.s pedigree.

One can claim anything under the circumstances but it is not proof of Divine heritage.

I cringe everytime someone is asked to prove the legitimacy of the Bible and they answer by quoting it.

Would never stand in a court of law or any other intelligent forum.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Sorry Frank. I wasn't trying to tick you off.

Bob.

I don't think I was being disrespectful to you and your thinking. I think you may have misunderstood what I had said or, I am human and misunderstood you. Many folks have made extrodinary sacrifices for others over the years, it should not go unappreciated. Clearly I stepped on some kind of land mine here. I am not the shiniest bullet in the box but I still fire.
You don't know anything about me and to equate I'm not intelligent because of a hint at some kind of faith is kind of cold and uncalled for.Were we getting off topic? Yes, sort of , but not the end of the world. My beat to you and have a nice day.

Bob.

np

It's obvious you don't get my point...and I'm too old to waste more time on it.

Hostle you call it. Tired of hearing the same thing I have heard for 50 years is more like it.

Good day,

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Sorry I aggravated you Frank. Have a good one. Happy herping.
Bob.

Everyone has their own opinions and ideas gentlemen. I didnt mean to get everyone stepping on each other's toes. Relax, breathe in...breathe out, and just think about herps. That should calm you down.

Best Wishes Gentlemen,

Chris

I'm fine as long as Frank understands my snakes are cooler than his. LOL.

Only because you keep them next to the airconditioner! (lol)

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Ouch. I like that! I gotta remeber that one. LOL

>>Ouch. I like that! I gotta remeber that one. LOL

Faith is just that, it's a trust in something that can't be proven. My argument for you Frank, is that althought faith has been used to support ignorance, it is not the author of it. Wether or not you believe in the bible, you are mistaken to believe that it supports ignorance, such as people hating snakes because of Genesis. Somethings in life are beyond sciences ability to prove. I would also argue that faith and science aren't mutually exclusive but rather interdependant. for a solution to any problem to be found, one must have faith that it can be. Or we'd never try. The ability to have faith in the unproven is the driving force behind human achievement. Its the one thing that seperates us from other creatures. Any animal can reason and learn to some degree, but we are the only ones that can form a concept and have faith in it.

" I find his lack of faith disturbing"

D. Vader. (LOL)

Seriously, I think we need to be respectful of Frank's feelings. No one likes to be "thumped". Mice or people. Not much gets settled arguing. (especially my stomach)

Oh well....Off to clean cages...

Did I mention my cages are cleaner than Frank's cages?

Bob.

Rick,

History has proved that Religion is one of the greatest preservers of existing knowledge and the greatest force opposed to new knowledge.

An interesting contradiction yes. But the Churches preserved many of the great early works of Liturature (those they didn't label blasphemous that is) yet also persecuted anyone who sought answers outside the church as heritics.

Capurnicus and Gallileo for example were both hauled in front of the Inquisition because their discoveries conflicted with Church Dogma. It was only when the evidence became "irrefutable" that the church backed off.

The problem with Religion is that they try to stiffle curiosity and expect everyone to accept their version of the "Truth" with out question. people were taught that everything they needed to know about their world was explained in Biblical text.

So yes, Religion promotes Ignorance.

Side Bar:

A good movie to watch is INHERIT THE WIND (the Spencer Tracy version).

Though the main thrust of the movie is Evolution, the real battle is over the Right to THINK. Something Organised religion has allways been opposed to.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank,

While I agree with your points here and understand where you are coming from, I would have to say that overall, ignorance is purely human nature. I know plenty of people who have never even been to a church and feel the same way about snakes as most Christians. At the same time, I know plenty of die hard christians who keep and maintain snakes and other reptiles (myself included).

People dont like to read and learn. They expect everyone to tell them everything or show them everything. Furthermore, people twist the original meanings and only hear/read what they wish and not how it was intended.

Dont even bother trying to argue with me on that one....I work technical support.

Bottom line is that regardless what religion tells someone, or how the books have been re-written, people are going to take things into context the way they want to and not how it was originally intended.

How people take snakes and reptiles is how they WANT to take them.

I would like to go into this a little further, but I am at work so I better actually act like I am doing something.

Best Wishes,

Chris

Lots of good points there Chris,but I have to take an objection to one.

Children love to learn if you can excite their interest. Through the years I have taught literally hundreds of kids thru outreach programs and in private life to love or respect animals.

It is when learning is forced on them or made unpleasant that kids withdraw. When they grow up being told they don't need to know something or to stop asking troublesome questions that they eventually shut their brains off.

I have to admit I rankle on this one because I was a kid who was curious about everything. My Parents, my school mates and the Catholic Church did not like the questions I asked, so I started researching my own answers and ruled out of my life anything that expected me to remain ignorant.

Funny thing, the simple question: (WHY?) shatters so many myths that we are spoon fed from birth.

I have said many times here that I do not know if there is a supreme being. I do know that organised religion thrives on selling the idea, and maintains it by promoting "unquestioning Faith" in their particular pitch.

It's that simple for me. I cannot pray to any God when so many answers are not there to the questions I have. And I completely resent when some religious type tells me I am supposed to shut off my brain and live on the mindless doctine of "Faith".

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

When it comes to the children...I agree 100%. I have said just the same as you in the past. When you shut the childs mind off from having an imagination and being able to ask questions, they will stop wanting to learn.

However, on the basis of the "Faith" factor, that is exactly what it is. There is no doubt in my mind that the Bible has been "edited" over the years by different people. The "King James VERSION" says it all. I prefer to deal with it like this.

I feel that there is a higher power. Do I know this for sure? Heavens no. But that is exactly what faith is. Belief and trust in something that you have no proof of. In my eye however, science is nothing better.

Do you have any clue how much crap "The Big Bang Theory" sounds to me? Everything in life is simply "best guess" until proven otherwise.

This far in my life, there have been too many prayers that I have made to the Lord above, and have paid off. I refuse to believe in coincidences (other than when I am troubleshooting computers..lol) simply because of all the things that have happened in my life. I personally believe that everybody has a purpose and that there is one supreme being out there watching over me. Do I have proof of this? No, not exactly, but it is how I honestly feel deep down.

You perhaps probably think of it as a croc of crap. That's fine, that is certainly your right, and I will not be beating down your door like a jehovah's witness trying to persuade you otherwise. But I am fully against someone attacking another individuals religion because it doesnt make sense to them. It is simply no different than other people attacking US because we like snakes, and they can't bother to think of a reason why or understand.

Just my .02 cents.......ok maybe two and a half

Best Wishes,

Chris

Frank,

I think Chris makes some valid points. I think for myself and make my own decisions. I am not "Spoon fed" You have clearly been burned as many of us have but I with all respect think you may be throwing out the baby with the bath water.

You said you are a student of history. Do you remember about Martin Luther? Not a perfect person but was looking for the real deal even though at the time there were a lot of people religiuosly suppressing freedom. He didn't reject it all. Life is rarely black and white an awful lot of grey from where I am.

Did you ever notice that Jesus only really gave major grief to "religious" leaders who lorded it over other folks?

Power corrupts whether religious or secular(killing feilds?)

Frank, I also feel like you are painting with a very broad brush.While I appreciate you are a veteran (thank you) and a history buff. Many of the believers I know are lawyers, veterans,teachers, musicians, cops etc. To say that you are too intelligent to believe smacks of some sort of superiority thing, and dude I've seen your spelling,you're not taking home any Noble prizes LOL.

I respect you feel differently and I am sorry for the christian type jerks who've burned you. Can we get back to snake s now?

I wish you the best and apologize for being aggravating.

Bob.

Frank, None of us is ever going to have all the answers. Christians aren't called to shut off their brains because of faith. Thomas said to other disciples that he wouldn't believe until he saw it for himself. We all have doubts and things that seem to fly in direct conflict to faith.Part of faith is truthfully admitting we don't understand but trusting the one that does.

Can we please get back to snakes now?

Bob

Nobel prize lol.

"Knowledge is without ego...."

My rejection of unproveable theorys that manifest themselves as Religion are hardly based on my getting off on being superior. In that, you miss the point.

Ego is a worse master than Religion. Sorry, not where I'm at.

My ancestor Thomas Mentzer was a contemporary of the orrigional Martin Luther-founding his own branch of protestantism. So yes I do have familiarity with what Luther was about. Most of it had to do with some of the same reasons why I believe as I do (different conclusions). Part of it was also that the Catholic Church was a dominant political force at that time.

One's rank and station have nothing to do with one's intellect and validity of belief. I have met country folk many times who lived simply and were more honest in their beliefs. I have also known people who had the ability to pass tests, do their homework and spend the money to get a degree that had the brain power you would expect from a streetsweeper. Three times I have almost been killed by medical screwups by doctors....I never accept opinion that is only based on credentials and not hard evidence.

As to faith or lack of same:

I believe it to be a personal discision and we all make our choices based upon the level of proof and faith we are willing to explore. It troubles me when someone says they are comfortable with their faith, because that means they have stopped asking questions. When you stop doing that, you cease to grow.

I much prefer talking about snakes.
Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

np

oh...sorry to hear you get that kind of greeting.

WEll...for me..lots of my friends says I'm a weirdo for liking weird stuff that mostly people don't(or the so called normal people)..like snake for one,and iguana..and hedgehog...and so on...well..i just never care bout what they say instead I'll tell them happily how cute of the exotic animal.
Even my parents also show the unbelievable face to me.But i don't know..all these doesn't cause any effect on me for keep on liking what i like.