Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I hear this all the time, more then you can know(I owned an exhibit company)

Many consider a cage naturalistic if there is a material that came from nature, you cypress crap and yosemity sand, etc. Trouble is, those are manifactured things, not natural things. Yes, they start with natural things and run them thru a shredder or crusher, which makes lots of splinters and sharp edges. So now we call them natural, but they feel like fiberglass to the animals. In my experience, reptiles are very attuned to feel, and seek out what feels good to them(hmmmmmmm thinking, thinking, ok I done)

Nope, those things are not natural, cause they do not feel natural. I wonder if smelling natural is of inportance, ever wonder why your snake craps in the middle of the cage, right after you clean it???????

Or folks make cages that have a look, at best, its a slice of some enviornment, like once a put a piece of the boy scout road in an alterna cage. While this is nice, the natural part is mostly to remind us of where we got them or where they came from. I call these "post card cages" Don't get me wrong, the folks that do this have the best of intentions. But its their intentions not the snakes.

Then most of us make cages similar to our world, that is from the ground up. But most of the reptiles we work with live from the ground down. for example, if fish were to keep us, would they keep us in a fish tank? they only see us when we are swimming or, snorkling, etc. So they must think we are aquatic. Good thing they don't keep humans for pets, we would be crap out of luck.

The whole point is, whats natural to the reptiles is what is useful to them, what feels right or smells right, not so much what looks right.

They understand things that allow a way to do the things they do, with the materials they understand. Like, you don't find mud snakes in sandy areas and you don't find pinesnakes in the mud, unless they're fishing, hahahahahahahahaha.

As mentioned below, snakes understand how to, move up for heat and down for cool. Or call it in and out, or call it vertical selection and horizonal selection, Call it anything, just call it a range of choices. Back to the cage, 99% of our cages have a inch or two(5%) of substrate and the rest is branches and such(viewing). Hmmmmmmm sure kingsnakes climb, but shouldn't this dang cage be flipped over and have 95% substrate and 5% viewing. Then take boards and stack them(retes stacks)(see I'am famous for something) only not on top the ground, stack them from the bottom of the cage to over the top of the substrate. Now we are talking naturalistic, well sort of.

As an ex-exhibit builder, I understand, certain dimensions are viewable and some are not. Tall cages can contain an appealling composition, a cage filled with dirt/substrate, has no appealling composition, well, except for burrowing snakes(kingsnakes)

You know, those ant farms we had as kids would have been great, only if they were bigger. Now we are talking natural. hahahahahahahahaha

Also, on certain forums, and most zoos, any cage with a waterfall is natural, WATERFALL, animals hate waterfalls, they cannot hear a dang thing. I hear theres a kind of bird that nests under waterfalls, OK, its good for them.

So whats natural? something, anything that allows natural behavior or cypress mulch and a waterfall? just something to think about. FR

Interesting post Frank. I have some ideas I look forward to trying next year, including a cold spot fuled by an ice pack. Just to see if it is used frequently enough to work it into more cages. I also want to make an insert to make some of my cages multi-level. As a kid I used many wood type replicas of branches and hides but as they got crapped on frequently I soon tired of trying to clean them. Also...as a youngster I made arrangements of rocks piled this way and that way which often did more harm than good. Cuts on snakes....snakes trapped between things, and other annoyances. I like to have a few cardboard boxes and water dishes with hollow bottoms in my cages. It may not appear natural but I do see my snakes using them as they would use places to hide in the wild so I think they're sufficient. Especially because once they're soiled I throw them away and replace them instead of trying to clean them. This is another reason I fight the urge to work with snakes with very specific needs...like arboreal species or animals requiring high levels of humidity. The snakes I keep appear to be doing fine in my simplistic set up, so I will stick with these types until I am able to properly attempt to care for more demanding animals. As long as my snakes seem content....no nose rubs, not acting stressed, eating and pooping and reproducing fine I see no need for a wanna be naturalistic set up. Tom Stevens

Yup, Thats the stuff I'm mulling over. Ya'll said it better,but thats the things I've been wondering about myself.

I can't help but think of the field when setting up boards, carpet and tin. The snakes won't crawl under them until they have been sitting out for a season. Even with dead grasses and bugs the snakes won't crawl under it until it smells and feels a certain way. I am never going to duplicate that in captivity and the snakes are not being fooled. The best we can do is try the closest thing from practical understanding of the snakes needs. For instance some species like to feel like they are all crammed into a tight spot (Lyre snakes come to mind)so I take a cardboard box and stuff it full of cardboard peices. The snake jams itself in there and then, viola', it eats. Point is the snake will never be able to use and act out its natural instincts. It survives and reproduces and thats what us farmers("herpetoculturists" consider success.
With different species we have to set up different things. Some species are more tolerant to basic captive conditions and others need more help. I wonder if the cornasnake morphs, Cal kings ect,. adapted to deli cups, papertowels and rubbermaids like pigs, chickens and cows have to farms.

heres a couple pics for you,
This ones actively crawling in the day, which I find far more common then at night.

This one is coiled in a crack. The types of cracks they use are directly relate to the feel of the surface, It also has lots to do with thermoregulation.

Thermoregulation involves the mass temp(deep in) the surface temp and how heat is lost as you move into the crack.

One observation I used about wild snakes vs. our captive conditions is from lyres. I find then sitting in a crack like this, for up to three months without moving. Without eating and without drinking. That made me wonder, If I tried that with one of my captives, it would be dead as a door nail. (no food or water for three months)

Its all about the ability to pick areas that do not waste energy or moisture. Cool beans this stuff is. Enjoy, oh, to make it about kingsnakes, pyros do this too.

This year, I found and photographed a pair that were very large, near five feet and looked very odd. FR

Did you mean old or odd FR? 3 months? that's incredible.

odd looking, I will load up some poor pics of them. FR

np

in these top two picks, the lyre appears to be very banded and not your normal pattern, Check the other lyres i just posted.
Also consider, this crack is about 1 1/2 inches high, and this snake has to squeeze into it. Also the pics are odd because this snake is about 24 inches back in. I use a lite to allow the camera to focus on the snake, so it loses all depth perception.


This last one is the mate. Its not as large but close. Also please understand, I have seen many four footers and these are both much larger, but I do not touch them so that is only a guess. Enjoy, by the way, I have hundreds and hundreds of these pics. FR

heres a gravid basking female, which brings up a funny story that happened sunday. I have not been back to see the pyros in a few years, I had several nesting sites. Well, I went back and had a look about, at one area, there was a crevice where the females used to sit, but the nests were back in a tiny hole. Anyway, I noticed the hole was coverd in plants, not a good sign of activity. So I move the plants away and got real close to peer into the hole. Only problem was there was this big old blacktail rattlesnake, blocking up the hole and my hand was inches away. A bit of a surprise. I do have pics, but they are not in the computer yet. If interested let me know. FR

I bet they are shaky pictures LOL. As much as I'd love to see these places myself, I'm glad you don't tell people where they are. Thanks FR.

He's so old he can't remember where they are.

DOH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

I would love to see pics of any wild lampros you have. Can you put the mountain range in there too, not too specific though.

heres a nice girl, hmmmmm being held by my friend Marty. enjoy

And thanks for all the other info and opinions you have posted thus far, you are like a gold mine.

This year, I found and photographed a pair that were very large, near five feet and looked very odd. FR

Are your reffering to pyros or Lyers? Either way I would like to hear more about the size and oddities.

np

Interesting i have only found lyeres at night. Not very many of them but the ones i found seem to be darker than the pics you showed , they were at the base of the superstitions. I always found them on the ground and never in any cracks.

Compared to newspaper and a rubbermaid yes cypress mulch is very natural. Actual good substrate for kingsnake houseing is not a option for most keepers on this forum. I have around 100 animals and filling cages 90% full is not a option but 2 inches of mulch and a bunch of branches 2-5 hides and a large cage is. Workable cageing for those of us with 9-5 jobs and limited time is what we are looking for. If you can give me a idea that takes less than 15-20 minutes to change out completly and fits your idea I am all ears.
What I would love are cages like what Applegate had in some photos I saw of his place. The cages where about 5ft tall and around 24-30 inches wide and deep. The cage was broken into multiple levels with access at differant points through doors and drawers. Holes conected each level but in the end after much thought I did not see any more depth from the picture in the substrate just differant levels of floors. If anyone has seen these first hand and can offer some better insight I would be most grateful.

And I respect any method of keeping your snakes healthy, but, its not the snakes problem that you keep 100 snakes, Is it????? and its the snakes that suffer.

Now consider, in Europe, there was/are laws that enforced certain space limitations. As in, they had to keep them in large cages. I wonder if that had anything to do with their captive success. Not that the large cages were that much better, I bet not, but the side result that they could not keep the number of cages(100) and then are allowed to enjoy and spend more time per animal. Instead of spending their lifes cleaning and recleaning cages. Do you think its better to spend less time with more or more time with less?

Also, don't get mad at me, I am looking for that answer too. I am constantly going overboard. But I am nuts, I give large cages and make to many. FR

I am currently downsizing a bit myself, giving away a lot of my stuff to freinds.

As an adult now and thankfully with a decent job and a large heated cellar, I can pretty much keep whatever I want but keeping 3 or 4 of everything is imposssible.And even if you could, what's the point? Enjoying your animals and not being enslaved to them is a discipline I think. I am working on it too.
Bob

np

Frank,
I agree completly and am in the process of trying to cut back. I am unfortunately a obsessive compulsive like alot of herp keepers. In that I am still too new to have had a hand in all the snakes I want to keep and tried a few to many differant snakes that I still have. The bigger problem is I never bought a snake that I didn't like so when it comes time to sell them I can't do it. LOL As far as caging I have many bigger cages. A few 6x2x2 a bunch of 4x2x2 and way to many fish tanks and plastic cages.
The queastion you didn't answer is how to setup a workable naturalistic cage. I know a cage and natural have nothing in common but I am asking what the Retes cage is. I also know its differant for each sub but try to give a base idea of say a eastern king cage a mountain king cage and another king snake sub cage. If you don't mind ofcourse.
Later Jason
Link

I totally understand, you see my problem is, I like allllllll kinds of reptiles. We breed torts, turtles, snakes, lizards, oh my, my stomack hurts.

About a Retes cage, there is no such animal. I learned long about one cage cannot provide all types of things so I got rid of the idea of, My albino kingsnake cage. Or my Lacie cage.

My set up these days is mostly monitors and they have huge cages, with all sorts of burrowing, climbing etc. At least at one time or another. I am not sure if I will stay keeping snakes, I hope I do, so I am not sure what I will do with them. Remember, they were sort of throw on me.

I did remember why I like cal kings so much and tharys too. Always my two fav's. I would like pyros the best but the laws do not allow for me to like them. Our laws are based on, you can have two, with very stupid provisions for what happens if you allow life events.

But I always allow for temperature choices. I am too dumb to keep it one temp.

I guess the best overall setup I have seen for small cages was Ernie Wagners. He used 15 or 20 gallon tanks, lots of them. and filled them 2/3 with shavings, and had boxes and stuff under the shavings there was a heat strip on one end, and the rest the the ambient temp of his room. I would add a lite to that.

I have already explained my naturalistic cages if you were to do them. A life of choices mostly under and inside, with outside or above ground too. I would base it on the snakes, not a picture or a scene out of a book. FR