Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ok i had sold a real healthy baby bearded dragon to a very nice lady. she purchased the female and i shipped it to her. she then stated this "She was climbing the cage and was all over the place yesterday." so obviously she was fine and healthy. she let her 8 year old daughter hold her for a while and then the next day after her daughter was holding her the beardie got real sick and died.

now im thinking that something happened between her daughter holding her and the beardie dying. i had 2 beardies die and they were a week old and they were the runts. this one was the biggest and healthies of all. she wants me to send her, her money back or she want a new one. i personally dont want to give her anything back because i think her daughter did it. im just looking for advice and oppinions. i am not a scammer or a unfair person. i really dont think im in the wrong here. so if any one has any advice or oppinions i would be greatful.

thanks

John, Aliifua

I'm with you all the way. I would never let a 8 year old handle a cat, let alone a small beardie. No children that young hold my beardie or chameleon. Obviously if it was healthy and then got sick after she held it, it was the young girl at fault. Maybe she squeezed it to hard, or had something on her hands. But to make everyone happy you'll have to send either money or a new beardie, cause nothing worst than a bad reputation.

I agree that you have good reason for your doubts about the possibilities of the cause of death. However, you admitted that you have already had 2 die (presumably of the same clutch) and it is not all unreasonable to think that this one you sold died of the same congenital defect as the others, regardless of their percieved health.

You can't play niave, and say this was a risk you were not expected to take when you sell a commodity that can easily vanish in instant for millions of different reasons. Every professional breeder has had to take a hit with some shady people, but you'll never keep business by accusing a customer of lying or being careless. If I were a breeder, I would make the customer acknowledge that I will not guarantee animals that are held by children. And to get a refund or replacement for a dead animal, they must get a gross necropsy performed by a qualified vet showing they were not negligent. I would also require a quality photo of their setup.

Sorry to sound harsh, but I hope this helps with future sales. I feel you do have an obligation to compensate this lady in some fashion as long as the industry standard is to replace dead animals within a few days of receipt.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

well if i get that. but if the lady is admitting that it was in good health (running all around the tank and climbing on the screen) then her daughter was holding it then all of a sudden it died? thats kind of wiered. she says that the skin is not dried out either so it couldnt have been dehydration. so im guessing it had to be something internal. and for the 2 that died, like i stated, they were runts, they were babies that shouldnt have hatced but did. they were only about an inch and a half and died 2 days after hatching . so that has nothing to do with a 6 week old baby dying. i offered to give her some of her money back. so i guess ill wait and see what she says.

then she aslo says this.

" Yes, my daughter held her, as she does all new arrivals and I never have a problem"
arent you supposed to quarantine new arrivals before you "even " let an 8 yr old kid hold it? she also housed it with a 3 legged beardie about the same size. so my guess is she put it in shock with all the attention or the kid squeezed it.

"Mydaughter is 8 years old and has been around critters all her life, so I know she didnt hurt the baby as the baby was fine last night"

so there she is still saying that the baby was fine.

I think if we on one of those law/court type shows, you would be accused of relying on circumstantial evidence. You can't ASSUME the daughter killed it, unless you have actual evidence. 6 weeks for a congenital defect is not at all unusual, even with the others dying much earlier. It can take a year to kill an animal with congenital defects. Nevertheless, you have done the right thing.

This also brings up something else I would do if I were a breeder: Require the animal to be quarantined, and get a listing of the person's collection. The listing will let you know how likely it is for the animal you are guarantying to acquire a new pathogen from the person's collection.
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"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."
Governor George W. Bush, Jr.

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Maybe you could state that since she didn't quarentine it, the warranty is null & void? But as a courtesy, you are willing to refund 50% or something to that effect (less S&H)? I'm not sure if you had given her any ideas about contingencies (warrenty) or just live arrival or ??

As far as an 8 year old; I have 4 kids, 10mos, 3yrs, 8yrs & 11yrs. My 3 yr old is allowed to hold with constant supervision (but not the first several days of a new animal); my 8 yr old has multi-disabilities so she just looks & pets what I show her & the 11 yr old is all hands-on. When my oldest was 8yrs old though, she was breeding rabbits and was mature enough to handle them and the babies correctly ... but a lot of her friends were not. It really does depend on the child and without observing them together, it is impossible to tell what type of handler they are.

Good luck.

Just a thought.

-Bonnie
1.0 husband
1.3 2-legged kids
1.1 maltese & husky
1.0 tabby cat
1.0 pionus parrot
1.0 bearded dragon (0.1 awaiting shipment)
0.0.1 crested gecko

Just because the dragon is running around and climbing all over things doesn't mean it's healthy. As a matter of fact, it could be just the opposite. Stressed out dragons will run all over, scratch, dig, and act very "crazy" which can often be perceived as "how cute he's running all over his cage."

I'm not saying your dragon was unhealthy, but it's very possible if you had two others die your clutch is genetically weak. "Normal" appearing dragons can be born with one kidney, and a variety of other things that do not show up externally. Reptiles are very adapt at showing no signs of weakness until the last possible moment. This is because they don't want to show predators they are weak. The stress of shipping could have put the dragon over the top and finished it off.

If the dragon was past your warranty period I would think you had a better argument. The dragon died less then 48 hours in their care with no "obvious" signs of wrong doing.

If you want to be a dragon breeder you offer a replacement dragon or full refund. These are the hits you take as being a breeder. Incidents like this will determine your reputation and the type of breeder you are and how you handle yourself.

Welcome to the world of selling reptiles.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

My Advice:

Tell her what she did wrong. (ie. Not quarentining new arrivals, not washing hands before handling, letting young children handle reptiles, assuming it was content from watching it run around)

Refund only the price paid for the Dragon, not the Shipping cost, as that is only a service that you provide for them, you are not selling the shipping.

After this fiasco is resolved, you need to write up an agreement that your future buyers will have to abide to and agree on. Some terms could include things that were listed above in the other replies. (ie. Providing quality photos of their set up and enclosure along with a description, Not allowing them to feed wild caught food, Quarentining the animal seperately in a different room, washing hands before and after handling the reptile, etc etc.)

If something arrises again in another sale, then you may have to change the agreement again after you have given a refund for the new problem.