Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is a direct quote I took from RDR's website.

"3.3 hatched out from this clutch on 06/16/03...............all the females are "ringer bellies".............all of these babies have a very unique look to them.......like het Piebald ball pythons do..........."

I did noyt alter this quote in anyway at all. If you would like to read it for yopurself, its http://www.ralphdavisreptiles.com/birthing_record/pythons.asp

some people believe it is a (not accurate) way to tell SOME pied hets. Normals have it, hets have it, ect... just so happens, alot of the pied poss hets had it and proved out, but normals have it too, so no sure way to tell.
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~~~ Krystal - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~

it must be true, give me a break, there is no visual pattern to a 100% Het-Pied. That theory doesn't stand up...

And Gee, Ralph told me to jump of that bridge! and said it would not hurt!

I am recoverd from my jump.
But mine was from the rec room.
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

It MAY be that some hets show this way. I'm pretty sure (from reliable sources, I have no 100% hets myself) that not all hets have it. In fact, it may even be that most hets in some lines don't show it (if there is even anything to it at all). At least with the Burmese python pattern mutations Green and Granite their sporadic signs of het (leopard and puzzle) appear to be unique to hets.

Two of my sister's 3 possible het pieds have some of it (one more than the other) but I also have a possible het albino that has it and I picked up a pet store girl because she has it so if it is reliable when seen in some possible het pieds it's not fool proof by any means. I was excited to see that the one with the most of it passed it on to about half of his offspring. The first clutch from the other one with some of it is hatching now so I want to see if any of them are more extreme examples like the other male.

I can rationalize that the thick black belly edge markings seen on some possible het pieds may correspond to the two black lines seen in the “normal” areas between where the white comes up from the belly on a piebald. But then again just because something sounds logical to us doesn’t make it so.

I have no explanation as to why a “recessive” mutation would sometimes be visible in hets and other times not be but I think the Burmese python examples make a good case that it is possible. I still don’t believe everything I hear about people identifying hets by sight, but at least when it comes to pattern mutations I now listen and keep an eye out just in case.

The real touchy issue, especially given that some normal balls apparently have this, is how reliable is it and how do you market possible hets if it is at least partly reliable. If the ones with this sign are more likely to be hets then the ones without it are less likely, at least if it’s a line that sometimes shows. It’s would be a real nightmare on marketing. Do you have different prices? Do you only sell whole clutches? I guess all we can do is share information and come to a conclusion as to if it’s real and how best to address it if it is.

Do you have any pics of this difference in pattern? I've heard people discuss it, but I've never actually seen it. It's hard (at least for me) to visualize it just from words.

Jake

Here is a link to a recent KingSnake discussion with a good pic.
Old thread on this forum about the belly edge striping

I just hatched this female 25% chance het piebald this morning(not for sale). Her 50% chance het piebald father has a little of the belly edge striping near the tail. She is a little better example than him but still not extreme striping although she gets points for having a pretty white belly. Hopefully I'll see a really good one in the remaining 5 to hatch from this clutch.

I understand HOW you make "25%" poss hets (het to normal=50%...50% to normal="25%" het)...but is it even correct in assuming they are 25% poss het.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable or disrespectful, but I just don't agree.

~Matt

I do not think 25% het is an acceptable, or accepted way to describe a Ball Python that has a Possible Het for a parent, and a normal for another parent, or even two possible het parents. The term possible het is used to describe an animal that has a parent that IS a 100% Het. When you get past that, it is a normal until proven otherwise.

Dave

But of all the offspring of 50% hets, 25% of them are hets. I'm not sure how best to describe them but I think even with the low odds they are worth keeping track of and I bet a lot of those "normals" will end up producing morphs some day.

If there ever really is a reliable marker for het then those who pick with it will hit on even more than 25% but how to describe the chance with those is what really gets complicated.

.

I do not think 25% het is an acceptable, or accepted way to describe a Ball Python that has a Possible Het for a parent, and a normal for another parent, or even two possible het parents. The term possible het is used to describe an animal that has a parent that IS a 100% Het. When you get past that, it is a normal until proven otherwise.

Dave

No. No. And no. The term "possible" applies to the odds/chance/possibility of an animal being het for said gene. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't get the confusion. ANd even more so, I don't get the disagreeing without providing an argument (not you Dayve).
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The problem I can see is for someone who might not understand how I created the animals that I'm calling "25% possible hets" (i.e. a 50% chance het bred to a normal).

Say for example, I had a really big clutch and was selling 10 brothers that I'm calling 25% chance. While that may be an accurate chance looking at the big picture of all offspring of all unproven 50% hets it's either high or low for a single clutch depending on if the dad hit his 50% or not. Someone might think that if they bought all 10 they for sure have a 1 - 0.75^10 = 94.4% chance of getting at least one het when actually that chance would only apply to randomly selected 25% chance hets from a large number of different 50% chance fathers. In the case of 1 clutch the 50% chance father either is or isn't het so each offspring either has a 50% or a near 0% chance so the chance of getting at least one het picking 10 would either be 1 - 0.5^10 = 99.9% or near 0% with an equal chance at each depending on if the one father hit or not.

So I think the confusion is the extra layer of uncertainty of being an extra generation removed from a for sure het and if all buyers understand that the 25% is sort of an average until we know if the 50% father is het or not.

Perhaps I may be wrong but how could that girl be 25% possible het? The dad has not been proven. Dad could be normal.
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

First off Randy, thanks for the pics. I now understand what everybody is talking about perfectly.

Now, for those of you who question the validity of 25% hets. I think the snake can be classified as a 25% het. You have to think that the label "50%" or "25% het" doesn't apply to a clutch of eggs, it's the chance that each animal will be a het. Normally, with 50% hets for example, the percentages apply to both the individual animal and the entire clutch. Statistically, there IS a 25% chance with each animal that it will be heterozygous. However, the clutch won't statistically be 25% het and 75% normal.

Jake

I used to always call them "possible possible" hets but I don't think that's an agreed upon terminology either.

I suppose the most correct would be something like "50% chance that it's a 50% chance and a 50% chance that it's a near 0% chance" but that is pretty long to say. Maybe "25%" chance isn't the best term but it's short and I would hope most people would understand what it means.

In the case of this individual, she is either 50% chance if her 50% chance father hit his 50% chance or near 0% chance if he didn't. If you had a large number of such 50% chance males and produced a large number of offspring from each out of the total group of offspring about 25% of them would be het. I know that it's a low chance and a given individual will not even have the chance if it's 50% father didn't hit his chance but until the father is proven one way or the other I think of them as random members of the large group of offspring of all the unproven 50% chance hets out there.

Of course some are totally opposed to possible hets in general even when it's the first generation out of a known het but since I've actually seen the odds work out I don't have much trouble extending it to the next generation. Even with the low odds it's still a chance and worth something to me to keep so I don't consider her a complete normal although I'm selling her "25% chance het” brothers at normal prices.

I'm open to suggestions if someone has a better term to describe the offspring of a 50% chance het.

And nobodies like myself just being a pain in the ass ...I truely hope you can prove out a bunch of those snakes!

I'm a nobody too and I do agree that "25% chance het" isn't a perfect term. It could give someone the impression that every individual one has a chance when, depending on how the 50% father proves out, they are really 50% or 0% and 25% is just an average or if you had a large group from a large group of 50% dads that we don't know about yet. I just haven't thought of a better way to refer to them yet.

Sure most of them are normal but at least the females are worth breeding on the chance they hit. Actually, I think there are lots of breeders holding their own "25% chance" het females back from lots of higher end morphs. Probably just as well they aren’t being sold much due to the confusion of how to name them much less what they might or might not be worth.

If there ends up being something to the marker then I'd like to see the males with it bred too and perhaps get some budding breeder off to a good starter project. I do suggest that if they can afford better odds to buy those but if they are looking at breeding normals anyway why not use a 25% chance male with the stripe for the same price just in case.

Based on statistics 25% chance is correct. But it is kinda shady. No good way to describe it. I will bo this route on some stuff because I am a poor student, but I will sell all the males as normal and keep the females.
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Derek Affonce
DeKeAff Exotics
dekeaffexotics.com

anything past the 50% het = Improbable het.

Dave

I believe you might be wrong. Ahhhhh the double het thing.
If you breed a double het for snow to a normal you get 25% possible het for snow and 25% het for albino; 25% het axanthic; 25% normal.
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

Who said anything about a double het? We are talking about an animal that is a 50% possible het, simple recessive gene, bred to a normal, and what you would call the offspring...

Dave

normal
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RicK Denmon

Ball Boutique,Inc.

IMprobable, yes, but NOT INpossible.
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~~~ Krystal - Future breeder of Pythons, Geckos, we'll see what else later! Specalizing in Ball Pythons and Leopard Geckos ~~~ www.geocities.com/krystal19_85 ~~~

I think it's a girl but a little odd looking so I'm going to have my vet double check my popping.

I got this girl at 1,300 grams for $45 last month at a pet store. She is now 1,500 grams. I'm going to breed her to the possible het male with the best stripe belly lining and see what happens. I'm not really expecting her to be a het but will be an interesting experiment.

Ok, I have 1.1 100% het pieds from the Sutherland's. I also have 2.0 possible het Pieds from Kahl. What should I look for to see if the possible's are hets, and what should I look for on the 100% hets? I do not believe there is any way to tell, but let me know, and I will look on all 4 of the animals.

Dave

I hate the way he types. Its the reason I never look at his site. Does he talk like we writes? It would take him 6 hours to order lunch if he does.