Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all,

I was talking to a couple fellow herpers in which one had made mention of another individual who supports a claim that crocodilians are in their own class. They are really no longer considered reptiles. They say the same is with turtles, is that they are no longer in the reptile group, they have their own class. Understanding that crocodilians are closer related to birds than anything else, does anyone happen to have any knowledge or documentation of this “change” in their status? I am not trying to knock this guys knowledge, but just about every book/magazine/article/zoological document that you read, they are listed in the “reptiles” section. It was mentioned (not to start a riot, fight, flame-war or anything of the sort) that anyone that denies this or says otherwise shouldn’t be considered a real herpetologist. So it is my guess by this statement, that this has been brought up and discussed by the “higher powers” of the crocodilian groups. What came about in this discussion? And does anyone happen to have any documentation as to why this was changed after many years of being considered a reptile? (I was told it had something to do with their anatomy, etc.)

I am not sure about this individuals claims, nor did he provide any sources for this comment or study, it was just during “small-talk” while road cruising for snakes. If anyone has any knowledge of this, and can provide some sources so I can read to update myself, I would greatly appreciate it.

Best Wishes,

Chris

I didn't bring this up to start a flame-war. This is only for my own curiosity and learning. I was a little shocked by the claim, and felt that I had been left out...lol.

Should anyone be saying that individual orders of the class known as 'reptilia' are now individual classes themselves (ie: crocodilians,turtles, etc.)?

Sure. Call them whatever you like.

There are no 'higher powers' Taxonomy is all based on consensus, the same way calling, say, a 'plastic disk designed for throwing as recreation or sport' a frisbee.

Convince everyone else to go along with you in calling a crocodilian or a turtle a non-reptile, and viola! -- you have it.

We could keep making new classifications every day. It simply depends on where you wish to move the frame of reference. If you like, we could say that crocodilians are actually mammals because they have two eyes, two nostrils, a mouth, a tongue, teeth, four limbs, a diaphragm and a four-chambered heart.

Get it?

Taxonomy has changed quite a bit over the years. Read the link below for a simple explanation on this.

As far as I know, Chris, your acquaintences'claim that taxonomy definitions are now 'officially' changed are not true. But, hey, if they keep spreading that around and convincing everyone, it could be.
Link

-----
Israel Dupont
Winter Haven, FL

Wasn't necessarily trying to step on anyone's toes or anything. I also wasn't trying to knock someone else's knowledge or experience, but thought it would be a good thing for me to look into in the event that I am a little "outdated" on my info.

Thanks for the response.

Chris

>>Should anyone be saying that individual orders of the class known as 'reptilia' are now individual classes themselves (ie: crocodilians,turtles, etc.)?
>>
>>Sure. Call them whatever you like.
>>
>>There are no 'higher powers' Taxonomy is all based on consensus, the same way calling, say, a 'plastic disk designed for throwing as recreation or sport' a frisbee.
>>
>>Convince everyone else to go along with you in calling a crocodilian or a turtle a non-reptile, and viola! -- you have it.
>>
>>We could keep making new classifications every day. It simply depends on where you wish to move the frame of reference. If you like, we could say that crocodilians are actually mammals because they have two eyes, two nostrils, a mouth, a tongue, teeth, four limbs, a diaphragm and a four-chambered heart.
>>
>>Get it?
>>
>>Taxonomy has changed quite a bit over the years. Read the link below for a simple explanation on this.
>>
>>As far as I know, Chris, your acquaintences'claim that taxonomy definitions are now 'officially' changed are not true. But, hey, if they keep spreading that around and convincing everyone, it could be.
>>Link
>>
>>-----
>>Israel Dupont
>>Winter Haven, FL

rep·tile
Pronunciation: 'rep-"tIl, -t&l
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English reptil, from Middle French or Late Latin; Middle French reptile (feminine), from Late Latin reptile (neuter), from neuter of reptilis creeping, from Latin reptus, past participle of repere to crawl; akin to Lithuanian replioti to crawl
1 : an animal that crawls or moves on its belly (as a snake) or on small short legs (as a lizard)
2 : any of a class (Reptilia) of air-breathing vertebrates that include the alligators and crocodiles, lizards, snakes, turtles, and extinct related forms (as dinosaurs and pterosaurs) and are characterized by a completely ossified skeleton with a single occipital condyle, a distinct quadrate bone usually immovably articulated with the skull, ribs attached to the sternum, and a body usually covered with scales or bony plates
3 : a groveling or despised person

They sound like friggin' reptiles to me! hahahaha

-IJ

A despised person is considered a reptile? That SUCKS! Anyways, thanks for that definition. Pretty interesting.

Chris

>>rep·tile
>>Pronunciation: 'rep-"tIl, -t&l
>>Function: noun
>>Etymology: Middle English reptil, from Middle French or Late Latin; Middle French reptile (feminine), from Late Latin reptile (neuter), from neuter of reptilis creeping, from Latin reptus, past participle of repere to crawl; akin to Lithuanian replioti to crawl
>>1 : an animal that crawls or moves on its belly (as a snake) or on small short legs (as a lizard)
>>2 : any of a class (Reptilia) of air-breathing vertebrates that include the alligators and crocodiles, lizards, snakes, turtles, and extinct related forms (as dinosaurs and pterosaurs) and are characterized by a completely ossified skeleton with a single occipital condyle, a distinct quadrate bone usually immovably articulated with the skull, ribs attached to the sternum, and a body usually covered with scales or bony plates
>>3 : a groveling or despised person
>>
>>
>>They sound like friggin' reptiles to me! hahahaha
>>
>>-IJ

N/P

Scientist and the such say they are more closer to birds then reptiles:

-build nest
-true 4 chambered heart
-muscular gizzard to help grind food
-elongated inner ear canal

Some believe that crocodilians and birds came from the same animal splitting off with what we have birds today and crocodilians today.

Add:
- cerebral cortex - unique among reptiles
- nurturing parent
- can fly... but only after I've had 6 pints of Guiness

Scientist and the such say they are more closer to birds then reptiles:

Some believe that crocodilians and birds came from the same animal splitting off with what we have birds today and crocodilians today.

I have heard this exact same statement in a speech by Joseph Collins. The whole reptilia seems to be a melting pot of "whatever doesn't belong somewhere else".

If you consider cladistics, I think crocodiles are much different than other reptiles. Crocodiles, dinosaurs, and birds are all archosaurs as far as I know.

There has been a lot of discussian whether crocodilians are really reptiles or not. They do resemble both reptiles and birds. Like you mentioned, they have a lot in common with birds and also with reptiles such as having scales, that is a true sign of being a reptile. That could be why they are classified still as a reptile. In a way, I can see them being in a class on their own, seeing as they are still quite different from all other groups or reptiles. Interesting topic to discuss.

Birds also have scales (lower legs and feet).

Rob

Chris:

Joseph Collins spoke at the GCHS meeting the other night. From what he said, there is a good deal of talk of moving crocodilians from reptilia into another class. He related that this is part of the movement to a cladistic taxonomy approach. If you post to Dean on the GCHS forum, he can give you alot more information.

Be safe,

Todd

Hi Todd,

Yeah, that's who he referred to that mentioned something about that. I had never met Joseph Collins and I am not sure about how much involvement he has in the research of crocodilians. I will certainly contact Dean and see if he can fill me in on the details.

Thanks,

Chris

>>Chris:
>>
>>Joseph Collins spoke at the GCHS meeting the other night. From what he said, there is a good deal of talk of moving crocodilians from reptilia into another class. He related that this is part of the movement to a cladistic taxonomy approach. If you post to Dean on the GCHS forum, he can give you alot more information.
>>
>>Be safe,
>>
>>Todd

Mr. Collins related that the changes were not based as much on anatomy, but more on genetic similarities based on DNA. Actually, he did not seem too happy with these changes, and the movement towards clads. If all the changes take place that he discussed at the meeting, what most of us learned about taxonomy will no longer be applicable.

Great pics you posted on the GCHS forums by the way. That eastern milk is beautiful.

Todd

Hhmm. Interesting, I must say. I guess perhaps I should start learning a bit more about taxonomy myself? I dont like the idea of a crocodilian not being considered a reptile. Crocodilians are the highlight of the reptile world to me! Oh well, what can I do about it?

Thanks for the compliments about the pics. I agree that E. Milksnake was gorgeous. I really liked his color pattern. I am still working on trying to get some shots of Timber Rattlers, Copperheads, and Massasauga's but I haven't had much luck. Perhaps I will be able to meet up with Jason again and see what we can turn up.

Best Wishes,

Chris

>>Mr. Collins related that the changes were not based as much on anatomy, but more on genetic similarities based on DNA. Actually, he did not seem too happy with these changes, and the movement towards clads. If all the changes take place that he discussed at the meeting, what most of us learned about taxonomy will no longer be applicable.
>>
>>Great pics you posted on the GCHS forums by the way. That eastern milk is beautiful.
>>
>>Todd