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If you discover a deceased specimen of a species you haven't seen before (such as a DOR), do any of you include the species in your life list or do only live specimens count?

because there are no rules, only those that matter to you. You'd be surprised at just how easily this can become a hot, competitive topic on herp boards Some people consider their lifelist what they've kept in captivity, some consider it what they've photographed, and some consider it what they've seen in the field, and even then, some don't count exotic, introduced species. What are your rules
Here are my rules:
Photos and captive animals don't count.
Questionable, and even probable IDs don't count (this rule really smacks my salamander, turtle, and lizard list)
DORs are given an asterisk (the locality is what matters to me, and you can usually make a fair guess about when it met its demise)
Established exotic species count (e.g. Brown Anoles in FL, Brown Tree Snakes on Guam, etc.)
Animals found in traps count (e.g. snakes in pitfall traps, aquatic sallies in minnow traps, etc.)
If I was "near" a person when they found a herp, it counts (this is a fieldherping rule; just because someone else was two steps ahead of me, or two steps behind me, or four steps to either side, or flipped a piece of cover before I got to it, or flipped a piece of cover that I missed, etc., I still gained knowledge)
If I, or anyone else in the same vehicle didn't see it on the road, then it doesn't count (basically, I don't count what another herper saw on the same night, on the same stretch of pavement; this rule contradicts some of my other rules, but it works for me)
And lastly, my lifelist:
http://www.geocities.com/shane77@sbcglobal.net/my_page.html
Shane

>>If you discover a deceased specimen of a species you haven't seen before (such as a DOR), do any of you include the species in your life list or do only live specimens count?

...very impressive list there, w/ my luck (or mebbe lack of perseverence & time...) Id hafta live till 200 to see all of those! Much like the birds & other biota that pass my way ..I only make the effort to document the unusual.
I suppose over time, these life lists for herps will become the norm as they have for the birders...

Cheers, RxR

Everything you said, I have applied to my lifelist also. I really only keep a snake lifelist, although I can tell what other herps I've found. I think the two things most people may differ on are the DORs and finds by other people who are herping with you. I count DORs, but I make a note that it was DOR. If someone is with me out in the field and they flip a snake, I count it. Now if they are at another location and we meet up later (and they have the snake in hand), I don't count it. I also try and get photos of everything I've seen. If I've seen a snake and it was DOR, I'd continue to look for it to take photos of a live specimen.

There is a link to my lifelist below, although there are a couple snakes I need to add (C.l.klauberi, Leptotyphlops). I'll update it soon.
My Online Page (photography, snakes, lifelist, etc)

n/p

I've decided to count introduced and non-native species, specimens found my me or someone in the nearby vicinity,and only living specimens. The DOR eastern milksnake I found was quite old/flattened, and not much was left of it anyway.

Eric

Hey, like I said before, you know the locality, saw the habitat, and know where to look again (you gained valuable knowledge). In my book, when considering DORs, a live snake is only a bonus. DORs, while not pleasant, are incredibly valuable pieces of information.
Here's a roadcruising scenario:

Herper A (the passenger): "Hey, there was a dead snake."
Herper B (the driver): "Huh, I didn't see it."

Herper A: "Dude, I just saw a snake."
Herper B: "OK"

(driver turns around, just to make sure, while Herper A is describing the location of the scene)

Herper A: "Alright, it was in this area."
Herper B: "Dude, I never miss a snake on the road. I think you're full of it."

Herper A: "There it is."
Herper B: "OK, I see it."

(Herpers exit the vehicle to have a look)

Herper A: "It's a ..... What the hell..."
Herper B: "Is that what I think it is..."

Herper A: (bends down for a closer look)
Herper B: (bends down for a closer look)

Herper A & B: (minds racing, because what they're looking at contradicts all they've read about that snake)

Herper A: "Hey hawk-eyes, I told you I saw a snake."
Herper B: "Yeah, bite me. Holy sh*t, what are the chances, I've herped this area all my life..."

The moral of the story: Look at DORs, and give them an asterisk on your lifelist

Ok, I've had enough fun
Shane

>>I've decided to count introduced and non-native species, specimens found my me or someone in the nearby vicinity,and only living specimens. The DOR eastern milksnake I found was quite old/flattened, and not much was left of it anyway.
>>
>>Eric

>>I've decided to count introduced and non-native species, specimens found my me or someone in the nearby vicinity,and only living specimens. The DOR eastern milksnake I found was quite old/flattened, and not much was left of it anyway.
>>
>>Eric

t

>>t
It's unlikely to be a hot topic on this forum, but the same subject has gotten very silly on another forum that I frequent. I'm not a birder, but I imagine that lifelists can be a hot topic in that circle as well.
Shane

Shane, what was your favorite Texas find? Finding that funky splendida/holbrooki and a clutch of their eggs was fun, as well as the indies, for me. but a batch of cat eyed's was a real eye opener, for the several dor's lead to the aor's near Armstrong in s. Texas. * those dor's!!!
Todd Hughes

Hmmm, my favorite TX find? Well, I grew up along the coast south of Houston (living in OK now), so over the years I've had many memorable TX finds. I'd have to say the most exciting and long anticipated firsts were the Texas Indigo and Western Pygmy. Both were lifelisted in 2002 (well, I saw a DOR Indigo in '96, but I wasn't keeping a list then). I still want to find some Leptodeira, but I rarely venture that far south.
Yeah, DORs can be incredibly useful, especially for populations that aren't widespread throughout an area, such as Leptodeira.
Shane

>>Shane, what was your favorite Texas find? Finding that funky splendida/holbrooki and a clutch of their eggs was fun, as well as the indies, for me. but a batch of cat eyed's was a real eye opener, for the several dor's lead to the aor's near Armstrong in s. Texas. * those dor's!!!
>> Todd Hughes
>>