Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi I am kind of confused about the whole bloodred thing. I read in a couple of places that when you outcross a bloodred to another morph that the bloodred gene will enhnance the red in that particular morph, but other people have told me that I would just get normals. I am thinking of crossing my bloodred with an amel and possibly an okeetee. Will the red enhance the red that they already carry, or will I just get alot of normal looking hatchlings? Also, has anyone ever crossed a bloodred with a blizzard? Just curious to see what happened. This genetics thing in the corns totally fascinates me. There are so many beautiful colors out there.

I was just thinking of blood blizzards tonight wile I cleaned them both.....LOL

wonder what that would look like....?

.........as for blood to amel....all will be normal...with maybe more reddish tints....

I thougt they would ave patternless(sort of) bellies too...but mine didn't....and I used bloodred amel to normal amel...

they are really red already and are only almost a month old....but the belly has some pattern......

might keep 2 girls for future project....see how red they can get...

........blood is an odd gene like aztec....it shows when it for more or for less......

.............JYReptiles

>Hi I am kind of confused about the whole bloodred thing. I read in a couple of places that when you outcross a bloodred to another morph that the bloodred gene will enhnance the red in that particular morph, but other people have told me that I would just get normals.

Both answers are right. 8-)

First, bloodred is not a single gene. Bloodred the pattern gene is a recessive (or so I understand) that diffuses the dorsal pattern and wipes out all or almost all of the belly pattern. Bloodred the color was selectively bred for and is probably an additive thing produced by an unknown number of genes. So crossing in a bloodred will probably somewhat enhance the red color. OTOH, the okeetees are already so bright that there may not be significant enhancement.

AFAIK, all the morphs that have had the genetics worked out are produced either by single recessive mutant genes or combinations of two or more recessive mutant genes. As the bloodred strain lacks the mutant genes in other morphs, crossing bloodred to a morph will produce normals, though those normals will probably have a somewhat enhanced red color.

> I am thinking of crossing my bloodred with an amel and possibly an okeetee. Will the red enhance the red that they already carry, or will I just get alot of normal looking hatchlings? Also, has anyone ever crossed a bloodred with a blizzard? Just curious to see what happened.

My expectation is that crossing an amelanistic to a bloodred would produce baby snakes with the normal amount of melanin and somewhat enhanced red. Mating the babies together (brother x sister) would produce some amelanistics, but there would probably be considerable variation in the amount of red.

My expectation is that crossing a blizzard to a bloodred would produce baby snakes with the normal amount of melanin and somewhat enhanced red. Mating the babies together (brother x sister) would produce some amelanistics, some charcoals, and a very few blizzards. I don't think red would be enhanced in the blizzards because charcoal prevents red pigment from forming.

Paul Hollander

i thought bloodred x amel made normals het for amel and bloodred, so if you bred the babies you would get some amel bloodreds? (1/16) and 9/16 normals, 3/16 bloodreds and 3/16 amels
Is this not correct?
Would this all be different if the bloodred bred was an outcross?
Bloodreds are probably my favorite morph but I really dont understand the genetics...

Thanks, Nicole

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Coal's Cold-Blooded Creations
Cook Minnesota

BOAS:
Gavin, Lydia, Hailee, and Jade ~ Dumeril's
Wyatt, Sheena, Shaylee, and Mary Jane ~ Columbian
Desdemona ~ Peruvian
Madeline ~ Surinam
Avery ~ Bolivian

CORNS:
Kiana, Sydnee, and Sierra ~ Amel
Casper and Kissa ~ Anery
Tripp and Scarlet ~ Bloodred
Bo, Katrina and Aidan ~ Ghost
Skylar ~ Anery Hurricane
Ariel ~ Striped Amel
Lily ~ Blizzard
Ambur ~ Creamsicle
Neva ~ Snow
Sage ~ Normal

BEARDED DRAGONS:
Divine ~ Silver Pastel
Christopher ~ Sandfire Red x Sandfire Yellow
Baby ~ Snow
Marilyn ~ Sandfire Red
Jane ~ Normal

CAT:
Morgan ~ Calico Tabby

DOGS:
Maximillion Vasco von Katzel and Len-Mar-'s Lexed Leas ~ AKC German Shepherds

HORSES:
Mateo ~ Palomino Paint Quarter Gelding
Chic ~ 3/4 Quarter 1/4 Arabian Bay Mare
Rayna ~ 7/8 Quarter 1/8 Arabian Palomino Filly
Dallas ~ Palomino Quarter Gelding
Banner ~ Red Dun Quarter Mare
Chance ~ Buckskin Dun Quarter Stud Colt

>i thought bloodred x amel made normals het for amel and bloodred, so if you bred the babies you would get some amel bloodreds? (1/16) and 9/16 normals, 3/16 bloodreds and 3/16 amels. Is this not correct?

It may be correct, but I've got to weasel word here. Bloodred x amelanistic does produce heterozygous amelanistic, heterozygous bloodred (the pattern mutant).

We have to distinguish between bloodred the morph (diffuse dorsal pattern, noncheckered belly, and much dark red coloring) from bloodred the pattern mutant (diffuse dorsal pattern and noncheckered belly). I would prefer to name the pattern mutant something else to minimize confusion, but Shawn Lockhart doesn't agree.

McEachern wrote in his color pattern booklet that bloodred the pattern mutant is caused by a mutant that is recessive to the normal mutant. Don Soderburg says that it isn't that cut and dried. Don is among the most experienced breeders I know of, so I'm backing off from the the "bloodred pattern is a recessive", at least til after I can get more info from Don.

Recessive may still be the best category to put bloodred the pattern mutant in. It depends on how easy and how reliable it is to distinguish a heterozygous bloodred from normal and from homozygous bloodred.

Anyway, 1/16 amelanistic bloodred, 9/16 normals, 3/16 bloodreds and 3/16 amels is what we'd expect in the second generation if we confine ourselves to amelanistic and bloodred the pattern mutant and if bloodred the pattern mutant is a recessive. If heterozygous bloodred can be distinguished, then some of those normals and amelanistics might be classified as heterozygous bloodred. It's nice to have well defined, separate categories, but Old Mother Nature can be sloppy every so often. 8-/

>Would this all be different if the bloodred bred was an outcross?

No, as long as we confine ourselves to amelanistic and bloodred the pattern mutant. An outcross would probably not be as red as a pure strain bloodred. OTOH, I've heard that the hatchlings' preference for lizards and the adults' breeding problems made outcrossing highly desirable. (I am inclined to believe that most of the bloodreds available today are more or less outcrossed, but that is sheer guessing.) Anyway, inbreeding and selection from outcrossed stock should be able to bring out the red color again.

>Bloodreds are probably my favorite morph but I really dont understand the genetics...

IMHO, nobody understands the genetics of the bloodred coloring. I sure don't. AFAIK, nobody understands the genetics of Miami phase and the bright coloring of the Okeetees, too.

Hope this is some help. If it's any consolation, I'm not at the glass end of the clear-as-mud/clear-as-glass continuum, either.

Paul Hollander