Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Even though the pastel portion of this line is still in developement, the f1's that I've produced so far are as different from normals as "Mandarin Phase" Madagascar Tree Boas are to Normal MTB's. That's not to say that the f1's do not have pastel tendencies but further breedings will no doubt produce very light, orange saddled Dumerils. This is actually something I haven't thought of until now, the "Mandarin Phase" MTB. This trait is actually quite similar in how the boas produce color. However, I know nothing about the trait's transimition in MTB. This is something that I'm looking into.
Later-
Matt Schubarth
Pet Nebula

The two phases of MTB are no differant the Suri's and common or guy's. Nothing more not a color transmission per say.

Ive read yourposts, ive read you descritions of the off spring and looked at the pics. I see nothing out of the normal, IMO I see nothing but normals and I am wondering if you can provide something that shows this trait from a nomral dumerils.When Jeff Ronnie produced the pastels he had soemthing that you could look at and go WOW those are just awesome. While yours are nice I dont see that here

Ive also read your descritions of the adult female you produced and raised. While its cool your so excited about its changes, its something that I have watched happen here many times. Its just a nice looking female dumerils maturing into a nice adult. Everything changes as it matures. Is there anythingwith that animal?

Thanks Jason
P.S. the male you got listed in the classifieds, you otta hang on to him that one will look just like the father as he cleans up
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Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)

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Honestly, I haven’t been quite as dismissive of your opinion on this subject as I’ve lead on. I decided to get a second opinion from someone I knew would offer unbiased advice on the project. I have a connection that I would consider to be the best person to submit this to as he has bred Dumerils and knows more about the pastel trait in Colombian boas than anyone else except, of course, the trait founder. His comment to me about my line of Dumerils was that these boas fit the definition of pastel and should be considered Pastel Dumerils.

However, he offered me addition advice in terms of how I should approach “trait naming”. The just of it involved me coming up with my own original trait name to make this line my own. This would eliminate the need to argue about if the boas are this or that. The trait would become something that I define, not the talking heads of the forum. So even though this line exhibits pastel traits, I have decided that they will not be called “Pastel Dumerils”- but pastelism will be part of the trait definition from my line.
Later-
Matt Schubarth
Pet Nebula

Another thing… I also plan on adding another attribute to this line to further solidify its uniqueness… pure white bellies.

Matt thats all great but what is the trait? IM confused as to what you see that you can call a trait. All you have shown and described are normal dumerils. I want to know what do you physically see on these animals that is the trait? Youve shown nothing but normal animals going through the normal life process, that doesnt deserve some trait name. You didnt answer my question above what is it about these animals?

Look at that pic below there is no comparision, you cann see that he falls way outside the realm of normal, I dont see wthat here and thats what I am trying to get at what is it

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Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)

Classic Dums frozen feeders

I'm glad I took the time to put it all in one post.
The trait explained in detail...

Ive read all that, the 3yr old as I said is going through the nomral changes of maturity. Its like comparing Hogg Islands, technically most hoggs fit the def of pastel but were not going to go running around calling them pastels when they fit within the realm of nomral...... they are another boa that is gererally light in color. You have your drab normals hoggs that have all the black speckling and what not then you have your nice normals that dont have the speckling and have a nicer pink. They are still all nomrals just because it is lacking the speckling and dark overtone and has nicer pink doesnt make it a pastel a genetic "trait" its just makes it a nicer animals. Now if you took the ones without the specking and line bred them a cou0ple generations till you could set what you started with and what you now have side by side and theres a considerable differance, you got a pastel. I dont see that here and am wondering why you think these are such a step apart? Your lighter ones are nice but all I see are the normal variable and that female maturing into a nice adult.
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Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)

Classic Dums frozen feeders

I'd like to see the belly pics of the adults to see the solid white bellies. The male I posted pics of a while back that you concluded was a cross(which he is NOT) had a solid white belly for the first few years of his life, and now has very minimal speckling. But, as far as babies having white bellies, that's not unusual. But, if your adults still have SOLID white bellies, that would be a point of interest. If you'd like belly pics of the male I just mentioned, let me know, I'll take some. Oh yeah, could you make the pics full body? I have many Dumerils that are solid white for atleast the first third. Unfortunately, pictures are very hard for showing color variations. In all honesty, I can see where Jason is coming from. The pics make the one look nicer than the other, but that's not a hard thing to accomplish you must admit. Are you ever going to be at one of the bigger shows and have them on display? That to me would be the way to show this trait. Did you ever see the pics taken by Charles E. of one of Tim Fraziers Dumerils? I have some of Fraziers Dumerils, they're very nice, but that pic made them look spectacular. I have a BCI that looks like a ghost ball python, also similar to T-Pos. pics I've seen posted by T. Barker. I've posted pics, nobody cares. I've also looked at T-pos. in person and my BCI looks damn near identical. My only choice-display her so people can see her in person. Pics just don't cut it....that and I don't have a cult following. If I did, yeah pics would be good enough-LOL! Well, I'd love to see the full belly pics of adults...here's that male Dumerils again, and also the female BCI I just mentioned next to her siblings as newborns. Thanks, take care

Paul

I simply do not currently have enough stock to make it worth while... maybe next season. Even though their are 10 I am going to keep out of this years Dumerils litters... half of them will be for sale next year. I am kind of in the process of going from being a lizard breeder to being a snake breeder but I'm still producing around 500(total) Veileds, Beardeds, Frilleds, Leopard Geckos, and Cornsnakes annually. I've only got one Peruvian Red-Tail that took this year, one Colombian Rainbow and other than the two Dumeirls thats about it. Next year should be a real bumper crop of quality BCC and morph BCI... so I hear you on the show thing. I've been so busy building up my pet shop and now that I'm into the 3rd year with that.. maybe I can get one of my managers to TCB so I can hit 2-3 shows with a booth next year. We'll see.

I don't have any adults with the pure white bellies, just 3 youngsters. I've had some(babies) before that looked like they might end up with white bellies but they were showing through some.. and I knew that they would develope belly pigment. I'm pretty sure 2 of the 3 from this year will maintain the white belly. They have some other pigments that look quite different than others I've kept so who knows. You say it's common so I'm not sure why its that important to see. However, if you still would like to see pics, I'll make it so.
Later Paul-
Matt Schubarth
Pet Nebula

PS- I would love to see some new pics of the chocolate female(50% hypo het?) that you posted 6 moths ago. I really liked her.

Hey Matt, as far as the white bellies go, I meant for an adult to have a solid white belly, THAT would be unusual, and definitely of interest. I'll try to get some recent pics of that female up for you. Take care

Paul
It was this female right???

She's got a bit of noise on the top but her color is very diverse. I like her, she kinda stuck with me...

I figured that we got some wires crossed on the adult/baby white bellies. Two of them are spotless so we'll see. I know what you mean with pigment developement on the underside as they age... "latent melanisim". That's why I've said before that Dumerils will tend to darken with age. I've felt that the belly is the easiest area to guage over-all black coverage. As you've pointed out, most "white bellies" gain black in that area as they mature. That is what lead me to that conclusion, as I doubt they get to choose where the black is deposited... if its coming in on the belly its coming in everywhere.

Once these kids are yearlings I'll get some pics of those bellies. When you asked me for full body shots of the bellies, I was thinking, "Even if they were adults, how the heck could I get them to hold still while I took belly shots", lol. I like taking pictures outside and as soon as I get a Dumerils in the sun they are b-lining for the woods!

Later Paul-
Matt Schubarth
Pet Nebula

Alot of the have pure white bellies as babies, 3 out 4 striped I just look at are pure white, im sure they will color with age, also I had another litter yesterday same father differnat mom all nomral pattern but one theirs a few white bellies in there the one has some cool things going on with her sides the eyes on her sides have white dots all through them pretty wild looking Ill post pics so you can see what I am talking about, regaurdless I am sure all will color with age
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Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)

Classic Dums frozen feeders

I would enjoy seeing pics of the stripers' all white bellies.
Thanks-
Matt Schubarth
Pet Nebula

There are many differences betweeh the two other then color. The greens thus far have proven more difficult to breed and do not grow as large as the mandarin phase. They are actually from different parts of the island (or from a seperate island, many mandarins come from NoseyB) and live in different habbitats. I believe they are working on classifying them as seperate sub subspecies.

You dumerils are very nice light colored animals , I would stick with the term selectively bred for lighter coloration, but a morph it is not.... Pastels are not really considered a morph, look around every other boa on the classifieds is labled pastel but hw many of those originate from Jeff? Not many

This is only speculation but the difference in color with my original(P1) could very well be the result of a locality difference. Very difficult to prove as I doubt any Dumerils breeders know where in Madgascar their line originated from.

Another example, not a great one, of the color differences of localities would be "Normal Cornsnakes" vs. "Miami Phase Cornsnakes". No one would say that the two localities(same species) look similar. There in lies the flaw with saying that my line of Dumerils are just above average specimens, put them next to a normal and they blow them away.

As I'm sure you know, most Dumerils as they age, become drab and dark. I'm witnessing the opposite with my group as they age, they lose most of the black pigment they have at birth and actually improve in color diversity. I don't care if its a trait or a locality... its a reality.

Funny thing is, of the litter of 16 I had 2 months ago, I picked 7-9 from the start that I felt had something special. Ya know what, they are still the ones I'm keeping as they are still the best. They rest are just exceptional normals. I can't wait to see what the keepers look like in another 6 months.

I'm at the point where I'm done talking about it for the season. Thanks to Jason, this subject has been covered in more detail than I ever imagined it would. I might have f2's available by next season and I await to see how this interaction will be seen as then.

Thanks-
Matt Schubarth
Pet Nebula

Side note: Most peoples misunderstanding of what the pastel mutation in boas actually entails astounds me. This is another reason why I am moving away from that label for this line.

"As I'm sure you know, most Dumerils as they age, become drab and dark. I'm witnessing the opposite with my group as they age, they lose most of the black pigment they have at birth and actually improve in color diversity. I don't care if its a trait or a locality... its a reality."

Matt thats why I keep saying as you learn more about there history youll understand the darkenss is not due to the species is a results of inbreeding for the most part, of course there are dark dumerils in the wild but the few you have seen that are leading you to this assumption are just that a few and not an acuarate representation of the breed,

you wernt around when things were bad and people were questioning whether the species would survive in captivity, due to the severe inbreeding. Alot of people hate the blackmarket and in many cases rightfully so, but in the case of the dumerils IMO it saved the breed, years back I had many dumerils that had week immune sytems and what not due to the inbreeding, I have spent years weeding those out and putting togther a good strong group, theres alot hystory youve missed that fills in the gaps, my animals overall do the same thing, get nicer with age, its not uncomon by anymeans
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Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)

Classic Dums frozen feeders

Matt dont take what I am saying the wrong way I know you kind of pawn it off that I am bitter over our past disputes or something and thats not the case, if you folow ronnes lead and line bred till you have something a step apart I am all for that, we both know this is an awesome but under rated species and anything that can help the species helps everyone working with them

I posted this before I dont know if you read it but as a generic example look at the bumblebee balls NERD produced them and is getting what $20k? Well not everyone can afford 20k but I think 9 out of 10 are fasinated with them. So whats everyone do they want to procude their own so for 5k they have a spider and female pastel. Not everyone is going to buy the spider and pastel from NERD they either buy them from their best friend or the cheapest place they can find them. So NERDS work producing the bublebee has helped everyone Same thing here same thing with any project.

Im not the only person who has tried to tell you this 3 or 4 other people have. Farziers guy said something, you want to see awesome dumerils go look at fraziers. He produces entire litters that turn out like that 3yr old female of yours. He doesnt have the variable within the litters and if he does it is seriously tilted to the right but he doesnt try to define them as some trait because he understands their just nicer normals. Theres nothing wrong with your intentions but if you keep trying to define them by your intentions without being several generations down and having something that is a step apart no one will take you seriously when you accomplish your goal.
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Jason & Danica
Don't wanna wait 'til tomorrow Why put it off another day? One by one, little problems Build up, and stand in our way. Oh One step ahead, one step behind it Now ya gotta run to get even Make future plans I'll dream about yesterday, hey! Come on turn, turn this thing around (Right now) Hey! It's your tomorrow (Right now) Come on, it's everything (Right now) Catch your magic moment (Right now) Catch your magic moment Do it right here and now Do it right here and now, IT MEANS EVERYTHING (Van Halen, Right Now)

So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating/Can't find a good reason, can't find hope to believe in/...You can't change the state of the nation we just need/ some motivation...So am I still waiting for this world to stop hating(Sum41 Still Waiting)

Classic Dums frozen feeders