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I had the opportunity to check this snake out last night. It is a nigra x holbrooki from extreme western Ky. First one of these I have seen from the state. I have been to the locale but did not see any kings on my visits there. Maybe later this year! I would like to see one like this in the field. Phil

something a little different. Phil

Man that is nice Phil.
I woulda guessed extreme western KY if you did not mention it.
It looks like it has more Holbrooki than Black king in it.
Cool snake...I wonder how far into KY Holbrooki intergrade???
John Lassiter

Yeah, I thought that snake was neat too. Apparently there is some dispute on how far into Ky the holbrooki influence occurs. I have heard from some that have spent more time there than me they exist as pure holbrooki. Others say as an intergrade only. The snake in the pic is from John MacGregor our state herpetologist and in his opinion they are all intergrades in this population. I would tend to agree with his logic since this is a very small area encompassing only a small section of Fulton county just north of Tennessee and on the Mississippi river. I have heard some other herp guys say the influence carries over into the adjoining counties and perhaps it does but the consensus is the intergradation ends abruptly just north of Tennessee. I have seen plenty of kings two counties over and none of those had any holbrooki influence that I could detect. The funny thing is I have visited this quarter quad several times and have always focused on some of the Nerodia with a very limited Ky distribution. I think next time I go there I'm searching for kings. I would very much like to see more specimens. Phil
Black Kingsnake site

Most excellant, Phil! Now that's what I'm talkin' about!
Todd

I love natural intergrades. How big was that snake and did it have the Holbrooki attitude ?

Keith
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Keith, the snake in the pics was around 3'. As for the typical holbrooki attitude honestly I have little experience with that. I have read in books that nigra and holbrooki have attitude issues but I honestly don't buy in to it. My guess is it is a underserved reputation that has been perpetrated from one author to the next. I have seen plenty of nigra and it is true the occasional individual is bitey. From what I have seen this is the case with all wild getula ssp's I have been around and I would think holbrooki would be pretty much the same. I think it is more dependent on the individual snake and less with the subspecies. I could be completely wrong though. I hope to find some of these in the field next month and get more of a feel for them. Phil

You call this individual an intergrade, How do you know that? The reason I ask is, there are lots of pattern tpyes, being posted here are intergrades, even when they do not occur imediately between the two types they are intergrades of.

OK, an intergrade is a product of two adjoining species. That is, Pure easterns imediately to the east, and pure holbrooki to the west, and where they overlap, can be called intergrades.

On the otherhand, I believe many are confusing intergrades with intermediate patterns. I think in most cases, particularly with kingsnakes, there are many populations that have intermediate patterns, but do not occur imedieately between the suspect species.

I believe many times here, its forgotten that kingsnakes are polymorphic and have a wide varity of colors and patterns in any population. Of course some populations and some subspecies are more variable then others. But still kingsnakes in all areas are variable to a great degree.

So, is this an intergrade by location and a blending of genetics? Or is it an intermediate pattern?

Again, forgive me for being confused, But I automatically thing that when you call them intergrades that theres pure populations imediately adjoining the said specimen. FR

Aren't "pure" Nigra to the East of extreme western KY and "pure" Holbrooki to the west of extreme western KY?

I would think it IS an intergrade with a strong Holbrooki appearance. Perhaps it has some Nigra in it....I dunno just by an appearance in a photograph.

Just an opinion I get given said locale and picture...
John Lassiter

You bring up a great point Frank. I totally agree that there can be much variability even within a population far removed from intergradation zones of ssp's. Not long ago I posted a pic of a Bullitt county Ky king that as an adult had a very distinctive chain pattern and to some degree resembled a N.J. getula. This snake was found in the heart of nigra's range however and far removed from any genetic influence of L.g.getula. I have seen many kings from that particular region and the typical one is very black with no pattern on the dorsum as an adult. I would consider this an example of the polymorphic variation within a population that you mentioned. There is also a tendency for some to assume that any nigra from western Ky that is heavily patterned to be an intergrade with holbrooki. I believe this to be a misconception as well. The typical heavily patterned nigra is simply a phenotype that has a tendency to retain the juvenile patterning into adulthood and has no resemblence to holbrooki what so ever.

I believe the snake in the pic to be an intergrade based not only on its appearence but also from where it was found. It originated from that little far off corner of the state that abuts the Mississippi river where the speckled king extends its range northward along this river system and where all of the kings to the east of there are nigra. The area this snake was found in is very interesting to me and extends but a short distance into Ky before there are dramatic changes in habitat. Some other unique forms that share this rather limited range here are the broad-banded water snake, the Mississippi green water and the western ribbon snake. But a short distance from the Mississippi these species don't exist. So to answer your question I would consider this an intergrade based upon location and the fact that it has intermediate characteristics of the two ssp's supports there is genetic influence from both. Phil

One more question, to me, and I am very naive on eastern kings, that appears to not have a holbrooki build. Holbrooki appear to be more cylindrical and rounded, also a smaller member of the getulus complex. That picture appears to be a nigra, with some blotches, in form and build.

I do appreciate the way you posted that. Without genetic comfromation, we can only guess as to the real relationships of those animals. And I think for a while, until they come up with a better test, it will be a while, all this is guessing anyway.

Most people without experience will fall back on the books, which is OK but the books were done when there were very few specimens and locations, compared to now.

For instance Pyros, they were done with 55 total specimens. That is over the entire range. After some investigation, I have seen far more then that in one canyon. In that one canyon, there were members of all types of pyros. There are some real differences, just not what the book said.

I think the problem is more about us as people. Folks who write, tend to sample and write. Folks like you and I, tend to study and keep finding new questions to answer. Therefore we don't write.

I also find that people like us, don't take any of this information as, "set in stone" its just one more piece of the puzzle, but, folks who read it, either believe it and set it in stone, discount it all together, no inbetween.

From your pics, at this time your a sampler, that is, your gathering information, from a broad area. You spend your time investigating the overlay. I believe that is why we have some different views at this time. Your next step is to restrict your efforts to one small spot and dig way deeper. I get the feeling, you will find it no different then we do. Just a different understanding of the same thing. Consider, in order to acquire a different understanding, you must use a different method of study.

You must consider, the information that both HKM and I have offered is from exactly that, its information gathered from digging deeper in one spot. But you should also consider, we both did what your doing now. Keep up the good work, FR

I think guys like us that spend time in the field have the questioning mentality rather than the acceptance of the written word that the average herp guy has. I feel that field guides are a great resource but not necessarily the definitive and last word on anything. Revisions of some sort are made on a regular basis and we have to accept these for what they are, and that is simply guides. The snake in the pic has been a captive for three years and from what I understand a tempermental feeder so its deportment probably does not reflect accurately how the snake may have appeared under purely natural circumstances. I agree that the snake has much nigra influence in its genetic make up. It is all speculative and based solely on supposition of what the present criteria is for what constitutes the traits of the ssp's as we know them. Once again as we all know this is not an exact science but makes for great conversation. To me, its all arbitrary but I admit I find all the variation to be very interesting and its one of the main things that motivates me to get out to the field and experience more. I always appeciate your insights Frank and I would very much like to hear more about your study methods. No doubt, as various methods are employed more information is gathered. Please elaborate, I would love to hear more. Thanks once again, Phil

Its an approach of learning, not so much methods.

The methods we use on our study site are standard field methods for pit tag studies, only difference is, we do not remove them from the site of capture.

My private studies, can be called Fossy or Goodall methods. Observation without interference. And no sir, they do not match up, but its fun to do both.

Lets take about the approach. Please let me ask you some questions.

You mentioned you found 60 some odd kings. Great, lets just say for math purposes, that you found a hundred. Of that 100 what percentage were doing an idenifiable behavior? Coiled, crawling, feeding, mating, shedding, etc.

What percentage would nature, that is, not under tin or wood or crossing roads?

What percentage were envolve in important life events, like mating, nesting, congragating, combating, etc.

Did you take important data, like temps humidity, sun exposure, soil type, etc??????

Now consider, a crawling snake is the least important for data, as its between choices, that is, unless you know where its going and what its doing. Consider, a crawling snake, will travel in a wide range of temps, etc. A coiled snake has made difined choice to be where its at. A crawling snake tells you what conditions a snake will crawl at. A coiled snake is telling you what it perfers for whatever reason, basking, healing, digesting food, incubating ovum/eggs/embryos, etc.

The above questions are what we fill out for every snake, as well as physical appear, scale counts, weight, lenght, etc. On the pit tag study, we process them. On my study, I do not touch them so I cannot take weights, etc. But I can make basic observations on health and weight. On my study, I take lots of pics. This helps identify individuals. I guess i am a snake guy, because I remember each snake, but with the gilas, I need pics, hahahahahahahahahaha. Dumb things all look alike, hahahahahahaha. No true, they are all different. For instance, this year, I photographed gilas emerging, pairing, mating, ovulating, etc. masses of them.

Whats important for you to think about is this, the type of snake(its particular behavior) the enviornment, etc, perdict the ease of which the above can be done. You may have to identify and find, non traditional populations. For instance, with gilas, the most common population type is not what I am observing. I had to find a population that I can observe. Which is not common. mind you, gilas are indeed gilas. Which means, they basically do the same things in different areas. Another example is, low elevation gilas, live in very hot places, they have no need to surface anytime of the year, so to view their life events, would be very difficult. Yet, I was able to locate gilas that had to surface, which allowed viewing.

Will any of this work for you? i imagine as you are in a area that gets cold. Which means, reptiles(all of them) have to move away and to suitable temps. For instance, you find kings under tin, here, they would be fried, even in the winter. So they normally do not use tin, its too hot. Cheers FR

So tell me how your getting your information? FR

Great stuff Frank! We employ similar methods currently. At our study sites we remove no animals. We think this is important as we don't want to create any bias. The few captive kings I maintain originated from transient roadside situations. I take detailed field notes and submit them to KDFWR for entry into the state data base. we identify every herp seen to the subspecific level and map to the quarter quad. I also record the situation each animal was found in, under tin, on crawl, DOR etc..as well as the time of day and environmental conditions. Of the kings we have found the predominant number have been under AC. Many were in ecdysis, some were gravid females and a number were digesting large meals. Most are simply thermo-regulating early or late in the year. We have also seen a far fewer number, roughly 10% on the surface either foraging or as pairs. We have not witnessed courting probably due to the tall grass situations and once two snakes are discovered on the surface we are already on top of them and they are startled. Other activities such as nesting, combat and that type of thing has not been physically observed. The habitat in which we work makes these types of observations virtually impossible. Usually we will record temps and rain events. Soil type, at least here is not much of a factor here for daily activity. I say this because we have found kings in equal abundance in every soil type that we have. I can certainly see what you are saying though and we do have a number of species that are restricted to very specific soil types.

As to physical disturbance we are often guilty of this. If we can get pics in situ then we certainly do. We do lots of digital presentations on herps here in the state and beyond so we do at times touch snakes and pose them for pics. At a study site I can realize how this intrusion could compromise a natural history study. For the last several years my field partner Will Bird and I have been doing a study on the isolated population of corn snakes in Ky. We recorded all natural history observances that we made but much of what we were doing was collecting meristical data. In this case one focus had to compromise the other.

Your ideas on all this intrigues me and I wish there was a way to better observe these kingsnakes we see without them knowing our presence. The very habitat they live in does not allow us to see them until we are right up on them. As an aside to our current pine snake project there are several great places for kings that we visit on a very regular basis in the same area. I am tempted to apply for a grant to see if a telemetry study could be done on a couple of the resident snakes we see off and on through the year. Thanks for the info Frank. It looks like we are looking for the same things. Now if I could find a way to get observations without intrusion. Phil

Again, your response is helpful, but missing the direction I was leading to.
The numbers and pecentages should lead you to, for lack of a better word, heaven.

For instance, soil type is extremely important for nesting. Once you understand this, then to reproduce this in number is easy. Its all about repeatable occurances. Not mearly occurances.

Roaming individuals(I coined gooners) do not lead to important information. Gravid females, pairs, and such, lead to very important information. The event of seeing them is not important, its what they lead to that is. Do you understand that.

My next questions would be to you, thought you already answered some. What is important to you, in your case, you seem to feel finding and documenting them is important. Its more important then using the obsevations to lead to more observations. Please understand, there is nothing wrong with that. Its simply your choice.

What is important is, you saying your kings don't do or act like we observed, because you have not seen it. The reality is, your not looking for it. therefore you do not know if it occurs or not. And yes, these types of behavior have indeed avoided easy observation for decades because of what you mention, its not easy to do. You have to be patient and selective. You also have to control yourself(not an easy thing to do) You cannot touch them.

Please think of this, all animals that I know of, do not run to their nest or family, when being chased. They all run away, in order to keep that safe. Why would your snakes be different? If you want them to lead you to their nests and homes, you must track them, not chase them. Thanks again, and please, none of this is about right or wrong or good or bad, just stuff, FR

Frank, I seriously think we are on the same page here. Documentation of occurences is important yet natural history observances are far more interesting to me personally than dots on a map. Nesting activity? Here there is little problem with this. Dessication is not as much of an issue here in the humid southeast. How do I know this? I have spent much time afield and I have seen many nests of herps in many situations. You must remember this is not the arid southwest. There are a few areas herps gravitate towards here, these being mulch piles, sandy areas around train bridges and rocky slopes with a southern exposures. Herps here routinely lay eggs in the pulp of felled logs. Without this being an issue we can subtract this from the equation locally unless kingsnakes have exacting conditions that differ from other species found in the same habitat. Almost certainly unlikely given their position as a habitat generalist.

Foraging individuals? Snakes seeking something out. A mate, food, water? Its hard to say. I agree its difficult to guess what is going on. We can make educated guesses. For example, a male found on the crawl in August is most likely a hungry snake. We must remember the time of year and the biological clock these animals maintain in their yearly cycle. Much can be gleened by eliminating certain life functions and focusing on other possibilities.

- The reality is, your not looking for it. therefore you do not know if it occurs or not. -

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What is important is, you saying your kings don't do or act like we observed, because you have not seen it. The reality is, your not looking for it -

I hate quoting statements but please tell me more about this. I thought that I explained to you what my environmental conditions are here and no I don't live in the desert. I think it is presumptuous on your part to assert I am not looking for life history events in the species I study. From what you told me in your previous post there is NOTHING you are looking at that I am not. My question to you. Do you use field glasses from the next ridge over to make your documentations? I can only assume your observations came from afar since you and I agree that intrusion modifies natural activity patterns. If so can you see the handicap I am working under here in the fertile fields of Ky where the grass grows taller than a man is high? Since you have such a clear field of vision perhaps you could share your data with us. Exactly what evidence do you have? Please share this with us. The reality is postulating theories is easy. Supporting them with evidence is the hard part. I like the discussion Frank, but at this point as before all I am hearing from you is catch phrases like "you must dig deeper" while I am the one supplying actual data and field observations. Its not that I mind being told I'm wrong, its just that if I am I would appreciate evidence proving otherwise.

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. Thats okay with me and I for one appreciate all that you have done for the hobby. Phil

I am not an idiot, consider, I have lived and worked reptiles coast to coast, and have worked reptiles from the american tropics(south america) to many places all around the world. From arid desert to tropical rainforest. So please stop the, but this ain't arizona thing. If you want the truth, I will offer it to you and I hope it does not hurt your feelings. The only difference is, your nesting is closer to the surface and much much easier to find.

You need to understand, snakes lay eggs in "certain" places for more reasons then mearly hatching. They place their eggs in places that have the highest possibility of success for those hatchlings. If the neonates do not survive, all the eggs in the world are no little use. There are many attributes to these areas that I am sure we are yet to understand.

All I ask of you, is to not make excuses, you do not have or need to believe anything I say, again, all I am offering is awareness. We do not have or need to agree, or be the same(something thats much to common here)(hehehehehe joke, common king, etc)

Again my advantage is simple, I am old and have done this my whole life. I have done what your doing, from your pics I can tell a bit of what you do. From my questions, you confirm what you do. So with the above in mind, from my many decades in the field all over the world, and from what I have learned here, all I can say is, your not digging(investigating) deep enough.

You must consider, in order to learn something different, you must entertain the thought that you must change your methods and approach. Remember the old saying, only a fool keeps doing the same thing over and over, expecting to find something different. In order to find and learn something different, you must do something different. Please don't be offended, we have to constantly remind ourselves of this, EVERYDAY IN THE FIELD. We are human and as such, we are fools, considering how much we know about rockets/jets and missiles, and how little we know about snakes.

If I were to go out on a limb, and I have no fear of that, thats why I learn different things. You and or, your partners, are success driven. That is, you feel numbers will teach you. The more you find the more you learn. Unfortunately, its not always the case. I call it the lizard on a branch, A lizard on a branch is a lizard on a branch. It really does not matter if you've seen it ten times or ten thousand times, its still a lizard on a branch. In other words, what does the lizard do when its not on the branch????????? Snakes under tin, have only so many possibilities, how many, how often and under what conditions. Snakes crossing roads, tell the experience herper very little, other then there may be a population nearby. Consider, what did snakes do before tin or wood/debris piles and roads, they were here far longer then those things. Snakes are highly adapted creatures, what are they adapted too. Tin?trash?roads? nope, not in the least. But they do use these new tools in the same way they use what they are adapted for.

If your interested, think about this. There are millions(upon millions) of kingsnakes all around you, every year, millions of females are breeding and producing babies, WHY CAN'T YOU FIND THAT COMMONLY? Easy answer, you ain't looking in the right place.

Please think about that. FR

Much to learn about snakes you do. In riddles teach you will I....

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Frank, I do not think you are an idiot at all. I hope you do not think I feel that way because I don't. I simply believe our conversation is at an impasse. Thats okay. Like you have said before we don't all have to think alike. Both of us are opinionated guys. I respect your opinions and I do not doubt you have made many good field observations over the years.

Best regards to you, Phil

That looks very similar to some of the "so-called" intergrades we catch on my parents farm in west-central Alabama. On a given day in the same field we can catch very dark nigra with very little pattern at all, and completely speckled holbrooki too, with lots of in betweens. I love the variability! Great king.

Thanks Matt. According to the range maps at least it would appear that the area you mentioned in west central Alabama may well be an intergrade zone. Robert Mounts book on Reptiles and Amphibians of Alabama explores this topic to an extent and he discusses the various habitats in Alabama and the distribution of the various ssp's and their intergrades. I would be interested in seeing some pics of kings from that area if you have any. I'm with you. I find the regional variation to be very interesting. Phil
Black Kingsnakes

Phil, anyone who claims to be a true southeastern US herper MUST have Dr. Mounts book! It is great!

We are located in Fayette, County, which by his range map concludes that both species exists here, or at least influences from both populations are expressed. It seems to me the blacker kings are found at slightly higher and drier elevations, while the speckled kings are primarily found along small floodplains and such. I guess this would help support the idea that they inhabit and prefer different environmental conditions, or they may even be the same snake that has adapted slightly different preferances??? Either way, I do have a few pics somewhere on a disc that we took this year, and I will try to get those up for you soon.

Those observations support what we see in Ky with nigra. Upland pop's dark, lowland heavily patterned. There are exceptions but a good general trend. Look forward to your pics Matt. Phil