Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Alas…JC communicated that there are no papers yet published on the close relationship of L.t.traiangulum and L.zonata or the DNA status of the “coastal plains milk”, believed to be a color morph of L.t.triangulum, and NOT a result of integrading elapsoides and triangulum. I’ll be in the loop when the papers are published.

In the mean time…it’s MY humble belief that: (see if you can follow my fuzzy math here)

(1) L.t.triangulum
PLUS
(1) L.t.elapsoides (or whatever it’s scientific name will end up)
EQUALS

(1) FAT L.t.triangulum that will pass some pretty red and yellow scales during it’s next few defecations.

Nice. I'm no scientist, but, it certainly makes sense to me.

Its funny and it does make scense however the data will prove it to not be the case. Can't say much more about the data at this time but back in the day several people (self included) crossed the two in captivity and I can report that they do so readily. That doesn't mean much in that it happened in captivity but anyone with eyes can see that scarlets have some historic influence on the southern population of coastals and the data will bear that out. The real surprise will be what coastals actually are!!! Frankly, they are working on one beautiful theorey which, to me, rings true as a bell. Can't wait for the review process.

What’s curious to me is that syspila, elapsoides and triangulium all have range overlaps in W. Kentucky.
Although syspila and triangulum freely integrade, there has been no evidence of elapsodes breeding with anything but other elapsoides in KY.

Thanks for sharing your input and experiences.
Did you have to “trick” the 2 snakes to breed, (as one would do to get a black rat and a corn snake to breed) or did you just put them together?

I tried it once years ago as an experiment with no luck…I used a large female scarlet king and a small male e.milk…so they were fairly close to the same size. I kept a close eye on them and the milk didn’t attempt to eat it…but no breeding either.

I hesitate to say this but it'll eventually come out so it may as well do so now. In 2004 after discussing the results of the DNA work, I decided that breeding my w/c hypo male scarlet king to my very scarletish yet local female coastal from Tyrrell County NC would not be a crime against herpetology or humanity. In short the two hooked up in less than a minute with no shenanigans on my part. The female went on to lay a prefect though small clutch with no problem, hatch rate was 100% and the neonates look just like mama!

About herpetology...
as soon as you think you "know" something, someone will go and prove you wrong.

No room for egos here huh?
That's science.

Neat stuff about your successful mating.

just off the top of my head the first clue to this relationship was publihsed in 1999.

Molecular systematics of New World
lampropeltinine snakes (Colubridae):
implications for biogeography and evolution of
food habits
JAVIER A. RODRIGUEZ-ROBLES*
Museum of Vertebrate Zoology and Department of Integrative Biology, University of California,
Berkeley, CA 94720-3160, U.S.A.
JOSE´ M. DE JESUS-ESCOBAR
Department of Molecular and Cell Biology, Division of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology,
University of California, Berkeley, CA 94720-3204, U.S.A.
Received 22 June 1998; accepted for publication 4 January 1999

I had a brain fart! not the exact citation I was looking for.
That one just ties triangulum and zonata as sister taxon.

I do believe there is something published because I've either read or heard this before. I'll look into it some more.

Forks