Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We all know people breed with hopes of producing specific looks. Has anyone selectively bred Kings in an attempt to create offspring that have a strong feeding response? Many who work with Mexicana have to go through a routine to get them feeding. I am wondering if it is possible to raise a hatchling who ate without fuss to breeding size and carry this influence into the next generation? Tom Stevens

I recently read that hatchlings inherit their eating preferences from their parents this is why hatchlings from wc parents can be a pain in the a$$, and the more cb generations the easier starters,
That would be a good project, to breed for the stronger feeding response, you could always breed good looks into it later,lol.

Snakes that don't do well in captivity will be less likely to breed. That would include feeding, temper, general healthiness, etc.
If these traits are inherited it would be difficult to imagine that captive snakes won't become "domesticated" to an extent over the years. Hopefully we will eventually have the sense to preserve habitat and the wild creatures that live in it.

over on the mexicana forum has thayeri hatched this year that all fed on the first attempt. I've had good sucess getting most of mine to feed on the 1st attempt too. It is genetic.

Vichris

This year I got 6 out of 9 Thayeri hatchlings to eat the same day or right after their first shed. I usually get them eating with my step by step method....But I have breed the same pair for 3 years in a row (not this year though) and every year some have been reluctant to feed and some have been hardy. I have yet to raise one from that pairing to adulthood and breed them....Next year I will though then I could test the method in the second generation.
I did hold back a pair from 2002 that will breed next year...Both of them were hardy from the get go.......

One more thing.....
Mexicana complex snakes are NOT the only species of snakes that have reluctant feeders as hatchlings. I have had reluctant Getula, Pantheropis and Alterna (especially alterna) as well.
John Lassiter

Alterna are getting better than they used to be,right?

I really cannot answer that Jetzen...I have not bred or hatched alterna in the last 3 years. Back 3 years ago I had a whole clutch that was stubborn...Only lost one but got the rest to eat.
I was less experienced than I think I am now.... I think it could be easier now for me, but not to a newbie.......I had to learn how to do it.
I am going to try and adjust some husbandry techniques this coming season to see how much I can improve on successful breeding, hatching and feeding with all my snake species...
John Lassiter

Take a look at how many Alterna are fresh caught each year and how many of them are bred to each other and think about that. Then look at some of the guys who have holdbacks bred to each other and how those animals feed. Some F1 animals are good feeders but not all. Not even most. Look at all the guys talking about scenting every year. Find a guy with a F6 clutch that is stuborn and you will have a guy that tells you how pretty his snakes are and how hard he had to work to get the nicest looking animals going every year but he did it anyway just to get this clutch and BLABLAblablabla they still don't feed
Later Jason

You are right Jason one would have to cull the problem feeders and keep the feeders easiest to start or the ones that eat pinks right away. One may end up culling a whole clutch though lol. I wont do that, its part of the price you pay in getting the hatchlings to feed. Basically if you dont like it get a Leopard Gecko !

Keith
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just wanted to clarify Chris' comments.

I had one clutch of 12 or 13 that all ate the first meal offered. Since then I've had other clutches hatch that have a few holdouts.

Russ

but my hatchlings eat without problems and though I have introduced new breeding adults into my colonies, I'm still achieving similar results with strong feeders. Sure I have my few holdouts but to give you an idea of what I'm encountering this season:

Eggs laid (thayeri) 72
Eggs good 61
Hatched so far 29
1st time feeders 24

Now maybe my method is the driver behind my results but hey if it works why knock it. I feed all of my hatchling corns and thayeri 1/2 pinks for their first 5-10 meals. It works and they all go to full pinks without issue. Even the hold outs will eventually give in to the pink 1/2.

A better line of snakes to test your thought process on would be alterna in my opinion.

Russ

Russ, I'm interested, what do you mean by 1/2 pinks? Lengthwise, mid-body? The "partial" aspect may be helping, like "braining" if there is some exposure to internals. If I missed it in one of the other parts of the thread, sorry.

Eimon

in half mid section. There is another plus to feeding this way.....you can feed alot more hatchlings with less food. I would definately equate it to braining.

Russ

But only a little.

Please, someone turn the lite on, so you all can see. Poor feeding response is a symtom, not a behavior. Behaviorally, baby snakes of all kinds eat like pigs and grow up. If not, there would be little chance that any would make it to adulthood.

Weak or selective feeding response is a symtom of non-suitable conditions.

I am having a hard time with this, feeding, breeding, growing, etc, are natural normal responses. Do you(folks, no one in particular) think your conditions are SO right, so you must select for the snakes to adapt to you???????????

All I can say is, this is the pinnacle of human behavior, are we so selfcentered that its the snakes fault for not loving our boxes? Someone help me out here? FR

Then Frank,
It all goes back to individualism in snakes.....
Some snakes like their "set up" and some snake don't.
The ones that do eat readily must like their conditions and the ones that are reluctant must dislike their conditions.

If the conditions are the same for all hatchlings and most eat.
I think some snakes just prefer wild animals to eat instead of our domesticated frozen thawed mice.....Good thing almost all of them come around to our way of keeping them.
John lassiter

with simple trouble shooting procedures, that tells me your conditions are borderline.

I would imagine there is a small percentage of hatchlings that are not fit, but that has to be very small(in nature). I would think it common sense, that wild babies, eat whatever they come across thats within their range of prey items. In fact, wild snakes seem to have a much wider range of prey items. I wonder if this has anything to do with them having proper choices of conditions.

There is more to this too, You blaming the snakes, absolutely ends your learning process and is of no benefit to you or keeping snakes. That you take responsibility for this, should cause you to widen your scope of methods and try different things. That will increase your ability to gain new knowledge.

In the very very low percentage that the snake is at fault, nothing is lost by taking responsibility for it. Again, no good is gained from blaming the snake, or in this case, a whole stinking species(mexicana), FR

I certainly do not blame a whole stinking species...I have posted on here numerous times that even Getula and others can produce babies that tend to be reluctant feeders.

I agree that I should try new methods....I certainly am...
Thanks for your responses Frank.
John Lassiter

Again, captive methods work, but are far from resembling nature.

There are two basic regimes to approach. The physical, here I believe most have to narrow of temperature ranges and not enough humidity for babies. Consider, the surface to mass ratio is many times more in babies then adults. Which simply means neonates cannot withstand the stresses as well as adults. Also consider neonates often different in weight by 100%, normally its these smaller offspring that have prey selection problems. This may or may not be a problem with the snakes. Most likely its the keepers fault, poor husbandry or poor incubation.

And then behavioral aspects are also important, Of course there are perferred prey types, but I would think a starving wild baby would eat a pencil(joke, but you get the picture)

Also, sometimes common sense has to be applied. We perfer to offer pinkies, but maybe the snakes are smarter then we are, they most likely understand that where theres pinkies, there's adults too and adult mice can and will eat baby snakes. In these cases, the ability to feed while undercover is important. Most reptiles do not risk life and limb for food, they consume food under their control. FR

I feed all my Thayeri under a nontranslucent bowl....to give them some security...Sometimes I even brain brain a live pink to stimulate a feeding response. I think the scent and the movement under cover triggers a feeding response.
Just an experience I have had over a mere 5 or so years of getting Thayeri, Alterna and Calkings to eat.
Thanks for all the insight Frank,
John Lassiter

well that's a good point you make but honestly when the conditions are right....belly empty, temps just right, daylight/night time.....you get my point then the hatchling will eat. If they don't then maybe they just don't like what they are being offered.

Heck I consider myself a "beginner" but I've had reasonably good luck with my approach. I guess Tom thought this was a good "what if" and "if so" what was the result.

"Do you(folks, no one in particular) think your conditions are SO right, so you must select for the snakes to adapt to you??????????? " FR

no, but when you are consistently maintaining your snakes in the same enviroment, feeding the same food, drinking the same water....then in my limited experience it is reasonable to think that a person might be able to line breed to produce hardy feeders. Until you can show me scientific proof that I can't, I'll continue to believe it's possible.

Frank - I don't know you but I do recognize your name and that you have some precedence in the reptile community. I would ask that even though this is a public forum that you might QC your post so that you don't come across as condescending...it's not appreciated.

I'm sure my comments will solicit negative responses but that's ok.

Take care,
Russ

All snakes are NOT strong feeders. In a given clutch, some will feed heartily while others will not.

Everyone knows this.

Everyone. And it isn't just snakes! Some people are picky eaters. Some folks are born with a tendency towards failing to thrive. Snakes aren't people, but I suspect some are born hardier than others, even in nature.

A fellow named Darwin had something to say about this, but he wasn't an expert.

.

I agree with you (and with FR on other threads) that individual snakes are just that. Funny how now the notion that some snakes have a tendency to be pickier feeders than others would make one want to cuse.

Contrarian or curmudgeon? You decide.

All traits have the potential to be inheritable.....
With all snakes you have variability.....
Snake are as individual as you and I or someone else....LOL

When line breeding or selective breeding there could be many outcomes. Preferable like genes could POSSIBLY pair up and produce preferred offspring....Then again Unpreferred genes could pair up as well and produce unwanted traits such as pattern, color, hardiness, size and or overall attitude.....

Variability will always be apparent....I don't think there will ever be two exact snakes....There are too many variables and not enough time for us to find out.
Thus...snakes are as individual as any other living animal on our planet....But....now we have cloning.....Whole different story........LOL
Just a couple pennies from me...
John Lassiter

And I hope your comfortable with them. Good luck FR

in the fact that I can raise a higher percentage of hatchlings to maturity than mother nature can.

The original question was an interesting one. Are some snakes more likely to feed than others, and can that trait be passed on to offspring?

I suggest it is, it will be, and it has been. You suggest to ask the question means we practice poor husbandry.

Remember, there are no stupid questions.

Now that I have your attention LOL. Actually Frank I just thought this was a good topic too talk about since many people have hatchlings now. I used Mexicana as an example because time and time again I read things like "these can be fussy babies but once they start eating there's no stopping them" etc. There's also talk of certain Corns from extreme South Florida that tend to prefer lizard scented food to start them feeding...and then people will claim that it is because of where the line originates from. I fully understand the FR way of thinking and know how strongly you feel about what's appropriate for the snakes....but this is not easily achieved in a tiny container. I often see peoples confused look when they enter my air conditioned snake room. As if how can my snakes thrive in a cold room? But this temp gradient we have talked about a lot this year is easier to achieve in a large cage. I have actually experimented this year with one corner of my small non-adult cages by putting in a window of sorts with many more air holes on the one end of one corner. For a box roughly 12 inches long I am happy to have a 10 degree gradient, and as you have mentioned I definitely have seen snakes use both sides at times when I'd not expect them too. I only have Corns and Mexican Black Kings feeding right now, my Gophers have not shed and nothing else is out of the egg. Many of my Corns are in tiny zip lock containers, and to attempt to give them some variation I keep them warm quite often but do move them to a lower shelf too cool them off as well....especially if many are active and seemingly uncomfortable. It is all I can do at this time....my room is not perfected to my content yet. I would like to hear how you make the ideal quarters for hatchlings...and what you would try if you did not have the set up you have now. In closing I want to say I have recently heard of a big time Python breeder who will actually freeze reluctant feeders....even high dollar snakes, because they feel that introducing these snakes into the hobby will spawn more problematic feeders. Thanks for the replies everyone,.,,,and I look forward to hearing more Tom Stevens

Tom said,but this is not easily achieved in a tiny container

There is no law of nature or herpitoculture that states, you have to keep them in tiny containers. That is a choice and that choice includes the inconvience it causes the snake, as well as the ability of keeping hundreds of baby snakes poorly. Small containers are a convience for the person, not for the benefit of the snakes. cheers FR

while he is patiently selling them off?

Frank, I totally see your point about living conditions..honestly. So what is your recommendation for improving the situation?

Thanks,
Russ

I can rack up the numbers....and I am happy to say in previous years the majority of my hatchlings feed well. Many are actually ravenous, which is awesome. However this time of year many people discuss feeding techniques to entice babies to feed. If I used Getula instead of Mexicana this discussion may have been over in a second. Those snakes seem to be a little easier to get feeding for many keepers. I just thought this would be an interesting discussion....and it must be as there's quite a lot of posts since I wrote it 2 hours ago LOL. I appreciate everyones input Tom Stevens

I have only been to west Texas three times this year on the great alterna run, and have gleaned this from personal observation at both night and day reconnaissance of the areas I hunted;
Lizards and the small mice that inhabit the cuts and the surrounding boulder fields are the preferred food for alterna
Most subocs, bairdi's, alterna, and celaenops actually live in the higher boulder fields than in the cuts themselves(personal opinion)
Most prey items live around the cuts(personal observation)
Most of these snakes travel to the cuts to get the prey items from the cuts and travel back to the "homestead"
Since you used Greeri as the example and I have none and cannot study the habitat, I fall back on my limited knowledge of graybands. A wise man told me to thoroughly search the tops of the cuts as much as the cuts themselves, but didn't offer an explanation. I'm glad he didn't, as it gave me the incentive to explore the possibilities. The huge suboc I found was crawling near the top of a 40' tall cut on his way up at 6:00 a.m. I went up to the top and caught him, and when the sun came up I explored the top. What I found was two 2" dimeter holes on top of the cliff that I believe lead into an accessible labyrinth that was probably this guys home, but most importantly were the two Cnemidophoris (g. gularis or tesselatus complex)I found prowling the cacti at the edge of the top of the cut. Long story short, I believe these kings (most kings) get what is available to them for their first meal, and what that most likely is would be a native lizard, as they are asleep when these snakes hunt. I know my w.c. mex milk will thrash a Texas whiptail over a mouse any day, but will somewhat reluctantly take a rat pup over a mouse. Not picky, just going for a preference. I would take venison over black Angus, and fried speckled trout over catfish, if given the choice, but will eat them all. If given a choice, i wonder what our captives would choose. I understand we all can't do this, but it is an interesting experiment. I know, parasites, injuries due to live feeding, blah, blah, blah, but these guys survive in the wild to produce so maybe...????. I have seen and caught many snakes that were extremely parasitized, but think it may be more to them living in a nonoptimum environment, as they can't kick the diseases naturally.anyway that's my $50 worth. I will feed what they prefer if w.c. and feed live mice and rats to captive born. Sorry so long, computer was down a week, so you get the full vent! LOL! Frank, how many animals did you find in the wild that were heavily parasitized. O.K., I'll go back to the field notes place now, LOLOLOL!!!
Todd Hughes

First think to do is understand the question, its about a species, its not about how many babies you keep. The question was not about commerial herpitoculture. It is a qustion about a species.

If your need for numbers causes you to allow the death of a percentage of offspring, its your choice. You have accepted X amount of deaths in the choice you made/make.

At one time, I cared for many hundred mexicana at a time and I did not have problems with them being picky feeders. But I did what Tom Stevens does, I used a cool room and offered choices of heat. My opinion is, in most cases, its a hydration problem.

One of the things that strikes me odd is, we(humans) are considered very adaptable, we often change and control or enviornment to fit our needs. Yet, here we are asking a much simpliar less adaptable animal to adapt to our conditions, instead of applying ourselves and solving the problem. FR

FR I noticed you mentioned hydration problems before. What makes you think its usually a hydration problem?
Is the only way to tell if there is a dehydration problem by looking at the tail and skin? And what can we do (besides the water dish and moist substrate)to prevent dehydration ?

Rainer

For god sakes man how long have you been keeping and breeding snakes ? How can you tell if a snake is hydrated ???? Whats the best way to keep them hydrated ???? Rainer Ill answer these questions for you but Im no FR. A water dish and a moist hide if you feel its needed... sheesh.

Keith
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Keith
You know what I meant. Quit your wasting my time and everyone elses.

I give all my snakes a choice between Evian, Dasani and Crystal Geyser NOOOOOOOOOOO!

I don't recall mentioning that I let them die or even accept that as an option.

I also asked" I would like to hear how you make the ideal quarters for hatchlings...and what you would try if you did not have the set up you have now."

I fully admit the set up for the majority of my hatchlings is for my convinience. But...where I am at now is I have room for about 40 6 quart rubbermaids which get a decent gradient. I am forunate enough to sell my offspring quite quickly in most cases....so the snakes in the tiny containers do not spend too long a time in them. This is why I asked about your set up for hatchlings. If I have to guess I may guess that your ambient room temp is better controlled with daily highs and lows as compared too mine? I chose this topic, and also specifically to Mexicana because of all Kings these are most often spoken of when talking about fussy eaters. I would like to hear a little more about your hatchling set up. Thanks Tom Stevens

Tom....
I have yet to see anyone post here in the last few months about a hatchling Mexicana not feeding....Given they are hard to get eating sometimes.
I have seen as of lately some posts about their MBKs and Calkings not eating and remember posts of Easterns not eating and some brooksi that gave you trouble in the past......

Some Mexicana hatch, shed and eat right away...some do not.
Some Getula hatch, shed and eat right away....some do not.

But you are right.....Mexicana has been given the 'bad wrap' in the feeding category.....And I think other sp. and ssp. have their reluctant feeders as well.

John Lassiter

I know bro, but I think it is easier to get a feeding response out of getula than mexicana when we're talkin about fussy babies. I didn't want the post to be a try this n that post. It was originally about line breeding for strong feeding hatchlings. That is why I even mentioned the Python breeder freezing non feeders. The post turned into how do we keep our hatchlings type post but it is all good....I just felt like talking snake. Tom Stevens

...

nm

????????

it was a joke and I guess I'm the only one who got it so I'll explain.

If you original desire to talk snakes brought this much discussion, imagine what might hapen if you were discussing female genitalia? Instead of 31 posts you would probably have a 100.

Russ

LOL Got ya Hey Russ, the countdown to Daytona has officially begun, my wife and I are at the Hilton see you there Tom Stevens

ok you had me seriously worried there for a minute. I thought maybe you had no sense of humor....but we all know that couldn't possibly be the case.

Yes the countdown has begun and in lieu of counting sheep as I fall asleep at night, I've started counting how many snakes and what kind of snakes I'll buy on the 20th. I can't wait!!!

I only live about 75 miles from Daytona so I won't be in town for the drinking festivities but I will see you guys at the show. I've already got Jason's cell # so I can connect with him. If you want to trade #s let me know.

Take care,
Russ

LMAO.........now there's a subject where hydration is really important!

yeah, now imagine keeping that in a rubbermaid

whew.......

technically.

np

I think what Tom is refering to here is mexicana that are reluctant to feed on domestic pinkies. My experience with a few hundred baby mexicana/alterna is that a basic shoebox with pine shavings, a tight hide, a water dish and a hotspot of 80-85 against a backround room temp of 60-75 is all they need for simple care. I live in a fairly humid coastal climate so for a really dry climate you may wish to add a moist hide. Under those conditions well over 90% of my baby mexicana/alterna will eagerly accept live baby lizards. About 5-20% will take uncented live or frozen domestic pinky mice. I think Tom is asking has anybody taken those few that take pinkies right off the bat and tried to breed for that trait.
Not to discount the value of proper environment but I think with the vast majority of mexicana it is a matter of prey preference.
Just for an experiment though I am going to set up a few naturalistc cages with deep substrates of various textures and humidities, multiple hides and a hot spot of 90 and see what happens.

That's pretty much what I was getting at. Frank says if conditions are optimum snakes will pig out. However this can be a little confusing as many people appear to believe that hatchlings do well in small cages to start thier captive lives. Therefor it is hard to make the conditions optimum as compared to a larger cage for a larger snake. I know guys who are completely used to using pinky pumps, scenting and braining and other things to entice hatchlings to feed. I wanted to know if anyone raised offpsring that ate pinkies right off the bat eagerly....then bred them to unrelated stock and produced more of the strong feeders. Actually now that I mention it....I will take it as far to say did anyone succede even if conditions were LESS than optimum...I am wondering if someone will ever produce a "line" of say Thayeri or Alterna that are known to be the best strongest feeders. I used to sweat it out in my snake room with high ambient temps....now that I have the AC cranking I see it suits me and my snakes better, but as I have mentioned numerous time on this forum I am far from done with getting my room set up...I have a long way to go. Tom Stevens

>> Please, someone turn the lite on, so you all can see. Poor feeding response is a symtom, not a behavior. Behaviorally, baby snakes of all kinds eat like pigs and grow up. If not, there would be little chance that any would make it to adulthood.

You describe a world in which all snakes are already perfectly evolved into ideal eating machines destined for faultless success. In fact, organisms vary and one of the functions of ongoing evolution is to further select for those most suited for survival. Among other shortcomings, there will always be those that eat better or worse (in the same conditions) and are better/worse suited for reproductive success and therefore best survive, produce the most young, etc. I think you're taking a valid generalization and turning it into an off-the-mark universal. How do you explain infertility among our pets, or agricultural animals, or humans? Would you argue it is always a response to conditions, and never a physiological flaw of the individual organism?

I "turned on the light" as you asked, and in my snakeroom, at least, it said, "when responses differ you try to change the variables to see if it changes the response. If all the variables of the conditions remain constant and the behaviors continue to differ, then the different behaviors are not responses to conditions (symptoms) but are instead individual behaviors."

Now, it could be argued that the conditions ARE different because one tray in my rack system is 8" farther off the ground than another, or because some are on the west wall and some on the north wall, etc. My personal opinions are that:
a) i've noticed no difference in feeding response between animals in one location and another, the infrequent instances of lesser feeding response seem random;
and
b) I think that the temperature ranges are nearly uniform, as is lighting. Other conditions (shelter, substrate, water, etc.) are offered uniformly.

My personal conclusion is that by excluding invididual variation you are omitting an important fact about organisms. Even among human identical twins there are variations, some of which experts believe are not the result of environment but of heredity. Apart from that extreme example, it seems obvious to me (which, yes, could be my blind spot) that animals raised from same clutches, in the (seemingly) same conditions, exhibit different rates of food consumption, different rates of conversion of food to growth (both length and body mass), etc. Some persist in feeding on mice and resist switching to rats longer than others. Some are more "nervous" than others when handled. I'm not expressing this as a matter of faith but as the results of my own observations as well as reading, etc.

I've REALLY enjoyed some of your observations and found them thought-provoking and insightful. But i think the statement you make with such fervor and conviciton (immediately below) suggests a blind spot in your approach. The real solutions, i think, come from acknowledging the nature of our animals AND keeping an open mind in reviewing our maintenance methods. Changing methods is more likely to affect the responses of our animals OVERALL, than it is to provide the solution to the small number of reluctant feeders in a collection consisting largely of aggressive feeders. IMHO.

>> Weak or selective feeding response is a symtom of non-suitable conditions.
>>
>> I am having a hard time with this, feeding, breeding, growing, etc, are natural normal responses. Do you(folks, no one in particular) think your conditions are SO right, so you must select for the snakes to adapt to you???????????
>>
>> All I can say is, this is the pinnacle of human behavior, are we so selfcentered that its the snakes fault for not loving our boxes? Someone help me out here? FR

peace
terry

You need to spend more time on the computer so you're post don't get buried. I often take a look way down the page and see that you have added on to a thread in some great way but its so far down that most people miss it. I know you have a life and all. LOL Maybe you can make a new post and referance the post below so we can get all your gems. Anyway good post even though most will miss it. Have fun in Daytona I will be wishing I was there from Chicago.
Later Jason

.

Come on man, just because FR says no than its no.??? Two words ALBINO CORN. The albino corn line without the outcrossing in recent lineage will eat anything. A F1 from the Florida mainland half way up the state will make you pull your hair out. Trust me, many a gravid female gave me eggs and many a F1 did I force feed. EX2 My Alterna line every year gives me feeders while a gravid animal I got last year that was a long term captive gave me F1 non feeders. My Alterna line was bred for color and for feed response activly not by accident. Last year I had 9 out of 10 feeders in my line and 3 out of nine feeders in the F1 line. Its is not that I did anything differant between clutches or that I am better than the guys before me. Its that they did all the hard work by breeding the good feeders because they got big enough faster. It is common sense and I can not see how this went 31 post without that being said. If it was then who the hell was stupid enough or full enough of themselves to argue????
Later Jason

If you took the time to read all these posts you will see I already said this post went in another direction....and off line breeding and into husbandry. I was trying to get more people to talk about on my orignal comments. Regardless of what you just said I was asking if someone intentionally raised a good feeder.......actually...I aint writing all this again. It's in there somewhere......... Tom Stevens

Ok I should have said Yes John Schmidtt at Suncoast Herps has been breeding his Alterna for color and feed response actively. He has very nice alterna that feed well. I picked up a few from him and none are locale but all are good feeders. It just seemed that every post was someone trying to sound smart when there is no intelligence needed. And no I didn't read all the post,.... there where too many. Then at the bottom I see you say that nothing has been done.!!! What!!! So I posted angry plus my first post went blank before I posted it and I got real angry. LOL Your a smart guy and I think you know what I am saying is true. Though you may have never tried to raise babies from a WC. I don't know but if you did it should be even more obvious to you.
Later jason

Upstream a bit...something about captive snakes becoming domesticated over time because of selective pressures in captivity.

But you are correct! lol

And I look forward to getting my hands on those baby easterns of yours!

Cheers,

Mike

OK good I am not alone.LOL Email me a number and a time to call you to make sure I got everything right for shipping
Thanks Jason

Just going by memory her Tom but a long time ago I read a paper by Bob Applegate on greeri where one year he said he had a whole clutch of grreri that at pinks right off the bat. He raised them up hoping their babies would take pinks readily but they did not. That is only one generation though, I have no doubt it could be done although it may be a little harder than just breeding for color.

I would think it has been tried numerous times? Like I said, it would be cool to see a line known to be better than average feeders. That as a trait would be such a good thing to incorporate into any project. I do not expect to see double het for Amel and strong feeding any time soon LOL, but wouldnlt that be killer? Thanks for replying Tom Stevens

Like Aaron said it's been tried many times with inconsistent results.

I bred a lot of mexicana in my day and some of things I learned were.

The animals I thought were "picky" feeders came alive with the most viscous feeding response you've ever seen when I dropped a small live Urosaurus in the container.

Any that didn't eat pinks right from the start would 95% of the time take them when they hit 16 - 18 grams. That was usually after 3-4 or four live lizard meals.

While it seems like FR didn't answer THE question. Basically he did in several parts. The keywords were: range of prey, optimal conditions, and incubation / size. All these factors will influence hatchling mexicana of all sorts to feed on pinky mice in one way or another.

Forks

Thanks for replying Joe. This post has inspired another. That subject will be along the lines of how we as keepers have got in the habit of feeling snakes are problematic if they won't eat pinkies....even more so if they won't eat f/t pinkies. I should have been more specific in my original post about that, meaning I really meant being fussy about eating pinkies in particular. I have been impatient in the past and fed some hatchling Brooksi baby Garters. At the time I though who cares? It ate,.,,,so it's all good. Regardless of this post blowing up into many sub topics I liked reading everyones thoughts....I will say it again, this is my favorite forum. Tom Stevens

one of the things that keyed the response in the "picky" snakes was the movement. The specific movement of the lizard running by, as opposed to the movement of a pinky laying on it's back wiggling. These same "picky" feeders would turn thier nose at frozen thawed lizards of the same species. So IMO it was entirely an instinctive response. I don't think humans live long enough to reprogram that type of response through several generations of captive breeding, but I could be wrong.

For me the biggest key was size, by 16-18 grams and several meals the snakes ate pinkies like they had eaten them all along.
I found this the easiest, least hassle way ("picky" feeders only)

Here are some notes I accumulated and things others have tried,
Presentation is key. Remeber these are crevice dwellers. It always helps to offer meals in tight quarters, that's where they feed in the wild. Crumpled up newspaper with a board on top is good.

1) Repeat the presentation of new-born mice on a regular basis even if they have refused your last offering. Sometimes they will decide to take a food item offered in this manner on the fourth or fifth presentation.

2) Wash a new-born mouse with plain water and then offer it to the snake.

3) Peel back the skin from the snout of a new-born to expose blood, and then contain the hatchlings in small quarters with the food item overnight.

4) Cut open the top of the head of a dead new-born mouse, mush the brain material around and place this mouse in the hiding place of the snake. The technique generally works surprisingly very often.

5) The practice of scenting, rubbing a lizard on a mouse, usually will entice reluctant hatchlings to take new-born mice. Also cover the nose of the mouse with a small piece of the Lizard's skin.

6) Lizard soup - grind up lizards in a jar with a small amount of water and keep them in the freezer. 15 - 20 seconds in a microwave causes the Lizard Oil to float to the top of the "soup". It's a simple matter to dip the pinkie nose into the "soup" for scenting.

7) Insert a new-born into the mouth of the snake until the snake bites down, gently put the snake back into its cage and wait for the snake to swallow. You may have to repeat this procedure a couple of times until it works (Mattison 1991).

8) Give the hatchlings the possibility to hibernate for a month. Some specimens are willing to feed by them self after such cool period.

9) EIDBO (1996a) also described another technique that has worked many time: Problem feeders he induced to feed by depriving it of water for 3 to 4 days. After this period he offered a newborn mouse dipped in water and when a snake started to drink the water drops, and end up eating the mouse.

10) Live lizards are almost always accepted, causing juvenile specimens to feed voraciously. Snakes, which have fed upon live lizards, should be monitored closely for parasites. If you feed Med Geckos, beware of tapeworms.

Forks

Thanks for compiling all of those in one post.

.

AAAAAHHHHH! The wise man appears! Hey Joe, really good to see ya' here! I think you could really contribute to this forum, and I have learned more from you on alterna in one season than all other sources combined. Great work on the alterna page and hope it doesn't keep you too far away from here! Frank has opened up lots here and I applaude Tom's questions to continue the envelope pushing. Many thoughts and experiences combine to help shape the view of keeping our charges in the best possible light. Knowing that a captive bred snake is different than a wild snake is one thing, but it probably will take many generations to condition a snake to our idea of the perfect snake. I don't know that we can ever truely provide a natural setting, but the closer we get, the closer I believe we will come to the true nature of our beasts. Good hides, deep substrate to burrow, temp. ranges, and food choices are some of the known ways to good husbandry, and we have a long way to go. I too would like to know how Frank keeps many neos to provide an adequate enclosure. I know he said no ones husbandry is perfect, even his, but would like to learn from those who have had many years of experience. I love learning new things on my own, but really love the knowledge I get from mentors. No one has all the answers, but some have many already figured out. Thanks to all on these forums who answer questions and provoke others to ask more!
Todd Hughes