Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is simply a "sharing of ideas" post and not an absolute way of doing anything.

I've tried it all. Measuring temps of the animals, watching snake behaviors, evaluating feeding response.. for some kings and corns and rosies and Children's pythons setup in different cage styles, from sterile rack with paper-towels to glass tanks with elaborate rock piles and infrared heat. My conclusion: the snakes would thrive in a tin can if temps, moisture (or lack thereof) and other needs particular to the species being kept are met.

Some of the things I found important for any cage, sterile rack or otherwise:

a) Reasonably roomy cage for active snakes is better than a cramped cage, especially for breeding females. Less active species don't need large cages as long as you can provide a proper temp gradient in the small cage.

b) Ventilation is a good thing, not a bad thing, even for kings that spend most of the time underground. Especially important for racks. Make sure there are lots of air holes in boxes.

c) Hides are a really good thing. A 1" thick layer of loose substrate can be a good hide for kingsnakes, or a piece of plywood or tarp or cardboard or plastic or ...

d) A nightime temp drop of even just a few degrees is a good thing if one can provide it. I base this on the feeding response of hatchlings subjected to a nightime temp drop as well as overall observations of the adults. Adult Cal kings are less beligerent at night and in the morning, which must be nice for them.

e) Hatchlings do just as well if not better in a deli cup compared to a really roomy cage, again as long as temps and such are correct for the species.

Have fun. I've learned alot.. mostly that snakes will thrive anywhere that their needs are met, and that more than one way can be an effective way to keep them. And sweaterboxes do not suck necessarily.
-----
Mark G
Whitewater rosy boas, mixed rosies
Prairie kingsnakes
Cornsnakes
Mtn kings (pyro, agalma)

d) A nightime temp drop of even just a few degrees is a good thing if one can provide it. I base this on the feeding response of hatchlings subjected to a nightime temp drop as well as overall observations of the adults. Adult Cal kings are less beligerent at night and in the morning, which must be nice for them

I only keep a few snakes but have suspected this for years. I dont use any extra heat 4 to 5 months a year just room temp in an unairconditioned room I keep my snakes in.
I do use fans for them if it gets to hot. The temp averages 83 to 86 during the day and drops a few degrees each night.
They seem to just eat and do better with temp fluctuations. During the winter I provide constant temp and use UTH .They eat fine,etc but you can tell they prefer the temp changes as long as its within their range.

>>This is simply a "sharing of ideas" post and not an absolute way of doing anything.

First, I applaud you for performing an experiment to determine the benefits of either method. However, unless this was truly a scientific experiment, I feel I have to say your conclusions are purely subjective. We're all going to house our snakes, lizards, frogs, etc. however we feel is best for our collection and our own viewpoints on husbandry. However, I would have to disagree with your conclusions in part. I too believe that a snake will 'exist' in a spartan sterile environment but I don't believe that is best for the snake. I also fail to see what satisfaction someone derives from keeping snakes on newspaper with a plastic hide box and water bowl and little else. I would have to dispute your results that behavior is not enhanced by a more complex environment - just what criteria did you use to determine that the sterile environment is just as good as something more complex? Well, at any rate I've said more than I intended to - suffice it to say that we all choose to do things our own way.
-----
Matt Campbell
25 years herp keeping experience
Full-time zookeeper
Personal collection - 21 snakes (9 genera), 20 lizards (4 genera), 6 chelonians (2 genera)

I agree with you about a more complex environment. There is no way, scientific or otherwise, that anybody can measure how contented a snake may be. My goal was to give him more choices on where he wanted to hang out by creating a bigger temperature variance and more than one place to hide in each zone. I made a larger enclosure for my Corn snake ( it is 3f 6in long by 2f deep and 2f 3in high) to give him the opportunity to move about. He even has a tunnel that leads down to a box on the concrete floor. He gets really cool curled up on the 12x12 floor tile that is the bottom of the box. Anyway, he gets to choose within a 15 degree temp variance. My sister says it looks like an enclosure you would see at a zoo. I feel better that he has more room (he was in a 29 gallon aquarium) and that I find him in a different spot whenever I go to take him out. Is he more content? I don't know, but I know I am because he has more choices.

As long as you meet a snakes "needs" it will thrive. I guess that's the real point. How do you describe what a snake needs? Really, they need very little to live and grow. Maybe they "need" to slither across aspen shavings, or find a hole to crawl down, or maybe a tree to climb. Maybe not. But I want to do the best I can to reproduce a natural environment so that I can feel that I have met any needs my snake has. Or is a naturalistic environment more of need I have? I don't know.

in my opinion. a snake can live in either one just fine. but I could live my whole life in a closet if my needs are met.

It is to me more of a quality of life issue. i would'nt want to live in a world of nothingness. consider a prison inmate. the live just fine in a plain cell with nothing. but compare that to someone on house arrest inthier own natural environment. who would be happier. the guy confined in the box, or the guy confined in his home.

Yeah, cell v.house arrest is an interesting comparison.

But there aren't many cages natural or strile that can come close to that kind of scale.

I like both and appreciate the benefits to both but obviously they both have their drawbacks and at times I also wonder if the throwing in of some plants,rock work and branches is more to sooth my mind. absolutely you can sometimes see some more "natural" behaviuor in a "natural" set up but if a nsakes sense of smell is that acute like a blood hounds, You can spot clean ALL DAY but with out rain to wash and purify waste,uv from the sun for bacteria reduction, breezes for good exchanges of gases etc. I would rather be kept in a cell(reasonably sized of course) that is CLEAN and SANITIZED with fresh newspaper etc.

ANY DAY.(with a nice view of course,maybe a window?) LOL

How about the comparison of a two room sized greenhouse where you urinate and defecate but shovel it out every few days or a similar sized holiday Inn with flush toilets,air condition/heat cable( nice cage placement to see whats going on around you) and the ability to get out and excercise your body and mind (being taken out and handled,satisfying keeper and kepts curiosity)

I think I would opt for the Holiday INN! LOL

By the way, did you ever walk in a train station and smell the urine even though they clean it, wouldn't it be like that in a "greenhouse" Two room sized cage even if the keeper felt it was clean enough. PU!

Thanks for sharing your results Mark. I realize the criteria you used were not exactly scientific but gave a nice overall look at the many choices we have and some food for thought.

Many of us wrestle with how we should cage our animals and I think it's a very worthy topic.Heck, sometimes I conclude that it's a shame we keep them in cages at all instead of free( don't let PETA hear that)but it's really neat to be able to interact with them and life would be boring without them.

I always appreciate where you are going with your posts. Clearly you care alot about your animals.

Good luck. Bob

Thank you Bob. Yes, I know it isn't possible for me to determine true contentment of the snakes in either condition. But, they sure know what to do with what they are given in any case.

>>Thanks for sharing your results Mark. I realize the criteria you used were not exactly scientific but gave a nice overall look at the many choices we have and some food for thought.
>>
>> Many of us wrestle with how we should cage our animals and I think it's a very worthy topic.Heck, sometimes I conclude that it's a shame we keep them in cages at all instead of free( don't let PETA hear that)but it's really neat to be able to interact with them and life would be boring without them.
>>
>> I always appreciate where you are going with your posts. Clearly you care alot about your animals.
>>
>> Good luck. Bob
-----
Mark G
Whitewater rosy boas, mixed rosies
Prairie kingsnakes
Cornsnakes
Mtn kings (pyro, agalma)

I also wrestle in good conscience about the best setup for my snakes. Your observations are most welcome.
We have to settle with the fact that the natural habitat for these animals can never be recreated by a hobbyist or zookeeper. We cannot measure the happiness of a snake either way so complaining that your antecdotal observations are not scientific is irrelevant. I do suspect that snakes are only driven by instinct and not by "quality of life".
Imagine any environment a snake is found and picture how hostile it is for them. Our little friends are placed in secure enclosures which many seek in the wild. We try to provide ideal parameters free of predators and parasites. Food and water is a crawl away.
I want to be reincarnated as a C/B snake.

np