Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here's a larger pic of the wild thayeri in all it's glory.

Enjoy!

DV

Thanks for the pic Dan.
That specimen just goes to show everyone that even in the wild their are brightly colored, clean thayeri.
I know line breeding has done wonders for thayeri here in the states, but everyone at one time was lead to believe that a wild thayeri was drab and dull......
I remember of one nearly as nice that you found DOR....At leas I remember seeing a pic of it one time...
Remarkable colors.....Kinda hard to have to let that one go...HAHA
John Lassiter

WOW, that's an incredible wild thayeri.
Thanks for posting.
Happy Herping,
Uncloudy

Hey John,

Anyone who thinks all wild thayeri are drab is misinformed. This thayeri looks remarkably similar to the DOR we found in 2000. Coincidently, it was just a few kms from the spot where this one was found. Unlike the high desert oak scrubland often associated with thayeri, this habitat is steep mountains and deep canyons with pine-oak / semi-deciduous tropical forest. It's amazing how much the terrain changes in this area with each bend in the road. Due to the low elevation and proximity to L. triangulum and micrurus habitat, we speculated that perhaps all (or at least most...) of the thayeri from this population are milksnake morphs. But of course, more specimens are needed to be sure.

DV

Thanks for the information Dan....
Do you think that a leonis phase could not be produced from a pairing of two wild collected snakes in that area?
What I am asking is....Have you ever gotten to a point in line breeding (if you did any) where all the hatchlings were either all Milksnake phase or all were Leonis phase?
Do you also think these thayeri are actually mimicking the triangulum in the area? If so, how can this be to their advantage for survival? Or are they mimicking Corals as most people think Triangulum mimics?
John Lassiter

Do you think that a leonis phase could not be produced from a pairing of two wild collected snakes in that area? >>>>Great question. I don't know for certain. It was just speculation based upon two specimens from the area and studying their habitat.

Have you ever gotten to a point in line breeding (if you did any) where all the hatchlings were either all Milksnake phase or all were Leonis phase? >>>>>Yes. I have produced clutches of both....and you can too if you breed them long enough.

Do you also think these thayeri are actually mimicking the triangulum in the area? If so, how can this be to their advantage for survival? Or are they mimicking Corals as most people think Triangulum mimics? >>>>>>Micrurus is most likely the mimic model since triangulum are lower elevation snakes and typically don't coexist with thayeri. I will say that where these thayeri were found is probably very close to the "contact zone" with triangulum. DV

Thanks for your input and the info Dan.
Very interesting finds down south....I hope to one day go myself not only to see these magnificent Mexicana in the wild but to also try and collect information for taxonomy and husbandry.

Cool thing You, Hansen and others get to experience.
John Lassiter

You're sure that is a thayeri? lol...what a beautiful animal. Surely a worthy target for captive breeding programs. Thanks again for sharing the pic.

Yeah Mike, he would be a mighty fine addition to a private collection, but that snake was dedicated to science. It's probably pickled by now.

DV

that since that pattern is possible for thayeri that maybe someone could get close to reproducing it through selective breeding. But your response makes me ask, is that snake dead? If so, it is the prettiest dead snake I've ever seen!

Curiously,

Mike

It was alive in the photo. DV

Very nice specimen thanks for sharing.

in the areas where you are finding these awesome specimens to actually come across one in the wild? Are they fairly common in their natural ranges? Do you typically find more leonis at lower elevations than higher elevations? Any chances of a triangulum and thayeri hooking up in their respective ranges to create a snake like you've show here?

When are you going to start putting some of your thayeri hatchlings up for sale?

Thanks,
Russ

Russ: I can respond to part of your question. First, we spent 3 nights within known thayeri range, hunting roads and cuts, and found 1 snake. I know others have been more successful that we have, but I also know of one crew that spent a full week and only found a DOR. I suspect that in some parts of the range at somewhat higher elevation, it would be possible to field collect them in the spring. They are probably "common" (as opposed to "rare" but their periods of activity, their close association with limestone and other extensive rock formations, makes them hard to find on the surface, and therefore creates an impression of rarity.

As for more leonis (vs. milksnake phase) at lower elevation...who knows? I certainly don't. I would love to come up with a biologically meaningful explanation for the great variability in pattern and coloration of thayeri, find some geographic basis for it (e.g., milksnake phase in subtropical vegetation associations, leonis phase in semi-desert), but so far such explanations remain elusive. Milksnake phase animals have been found nearly throughout the range, as have leonis snakes. It will take much more fieldwork and the involvement by more people to obtain useful data.

As for triangulum meeting up with thayeri, I am sure that the ranges of annulata and thayeri potentially meet in a few places. However, these are distinctly different species (despite overall similarity of color and pattern) and are probably no more likely to interbreed in nature than two species of ratsnakes whose ranges overlap. At least there is no evidence of natural crossing--which in general is exceptionally rare among snakes in nature.

Finally, here is another pic of the thayeri, along with a new pic of one of the ruthveni. Aaron--this second pic is to confirm for you the tangerine coloration of the bands in this snake.

Cheers,

Bob

Here's the ruthveni...this from the western end of the species' range in Michoacan.

Bob

that is one awesome ruthvens king

Just kidding...I'm still stunned at the pickling of those beauties.

Mike:

I share your concern/regret with the fact that specimens were euthanized. However, this was a research trip, operating under the auspices of a scientific collecting permit issued by the Mexican government, in collaboration with Mexican scientists. It is not possible to bring back live material to the U.S., nor feasible for our Mexican counterparts to maintain snakes alive in their labs (with few exceptions). Unknown to most gringos, I'm sure, is the fact that it is not possible in most places in Mexico to obtain lab mice (frozen or otherwise) to maintain a live snake collection. Things we take for granted here are simply not available south of the border. The goals for this trip were to obtain specimens and DNA samples for future work to sort out relationships and species boundaries among certain Mexican Lampropeltis. The success of our project depends on having specimens available for study, and the material we obtained will continue to be available to other scientists a century or more from now. The availability of specimens, obtained from known localities, is absolutely essential for this kind of research. So, bottom line is, we'd love to be able bring back live snakes to the U.S. and breed them, but for now at least, this is not possible.

Cheers,

Bob

Damn, laws are so stupid, aren't they?

Meanwhile, I'm going to go settle this dispute over whether the Ivory Billed Woodpecker has been sighted or not once and for all as soon as I remember where I put my shooting iron...

Just kidding...I do understand...but I do share your regret. Nice finds anyway, and thanks for sharing!

.

Hola Russ,

I think Bob summed up the answer to your question better than I could. Keep in mind too that we had up to seven experienced collectors combing habitat and road cruising. Obviously, this increases the odds of finding herps. Also, we were with Mexican herpers who knew exactly where to go to find specimens, or at least poit us in the right direction. Finding mexicana in the wild is no easy feat. You have to really work for them and have some luck on your side. It's simply a matter of putting in the time and hoping to cross paths.

As for when I will be posting herps for sale, I'm getting ready to launch my new site in a few weeks. I'm waiting for more babies to hatch so I have something to sell. I'll let everyone know when it's ready. Stay tuned.......

Thanks.

Dan