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is it true???

>>is it true???

e-mail me at jforks(at)satx(dot)rr(dot)com

How would you ever know that it's 100% pedagree gray banded king.When alterna/ruthveni hybrids get to about 75% alterna 25% ruthveni they look 100% anyway.The only way that they would have no ruthveni in them at all is a wild cought one.

Or if a captive pair of alterna happened to produce one.
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Steve W.

Only if both parents where wild caught would also won't life history also.

An alterna is an alterna as long as it's 'pure alterna" it doesn't matter if the parents are w.c. or not. F1's, F2's etc can produce an albino, anery, hypo etc..
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Steve W.

I'm not saying that they can't or don't exist just if your alterna breeding stock (if captive bred) how can you be certion no ruthveni blood in them.The only way you could be 100% that you have an pure albino alterna was if you had a wild caught gavid female that when you incubated the eggs an albino poped out or if you got a pair of wild caught alterna and they though an albino out.basicly how would know that if you brought an albino alterna from someone lets say you payed around $2000 for it that your not paying $2000 for a lets say a $350 albino altera/ruthveni hybrid.??

If I hatched out the animal I would take the animal to a lab and have them do a DNA test. That way there would be no questions. But thats just me.
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Steve W.

you would likely only end up with a degree of certainty. I am not sure how extensive our understaning of the genome is.

You would have to have genetic markers available for differentiating the two species. I don't know if anyone has ever found/looked for any.

I know there is some mtn king work going on know and they might have some, but under normal circumstances you can't just walk into a "lab" and have this done. You could find someone willing to develop the markers if you were willing to spend the thousands it would cost, but even then, how would that help someone at an expo table? Any fraud could "guarantee" his snakes were 100% and there would be no way to know. A pedigree would only work for a generation or two until a few animals were spread out into a few hobbyists hands.

Ever since I started seeing the albino crosses I thought "Great, now I'll probably catch a wild albino and no one will believe me or care!"
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Chris Harrison
Does anyone else here think that these scrolling signature lines are stupid?

Wow, a lot of negativity here. lol If someone were to produce one I feel it would be worth the money to have the proper tests done. Maybe that is just me but it would make sense. The chances of ever finding a wild caught albino snake is not likely to happen. (Unless your Dave Long lol) But there may be a better chance of it happening by breeding some wild caughts. Maybe some day we'll find out.
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Steve W.

Is that unless you catch it yourself or know the person who did, you will never be 100 percent certain. Take a quick gander at the classifieds. It is ridiculous to see how many mutts, and things mixed with thayeri and everything else. I had a person this year try to sell me a milk snake thayeri phase as a Mexican Milk Snake.

The bottom line, if it was captive produced, I won't be spending thousands on jack. I still have my doubts about Albino Annulata and others as well. I know personally of a striped annulata collected in the early 90s. I know of striped alternas as well.

I am not all knowing but my gut feeling says that most folks are being taken for a ride with all of this albino stuff.

Again if the animal was wild caught by a reputable person, then that is another story... If it's captive, probably another ruthveni/thayeri mix.

it all boils down to that "reputable person" that you just mentioned.

If a Blair or Johnson or Doherty (etc) produces it, then a cb alterna will be just that, a cb albino alterna.

If it shows up in a collection of someone we don't know from Adam, he darn well better have some pretty solid references.

If wc, then the person better have an unblemished record.

Were I to catch an albino alterna, I'd rather hope it was an albino alterna morph from one of the western locales - then there would be no doubt in anyone's mind - stuff with ruthveni in them don't look like River/Davis alterna.

Troy

Agreed. You hit the nail on the head.
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Steve W.

Steve I agree with what you say. But there is also a problem of who we would consider "credible". With all the hanky panky thats been reported to have gone on with alterna that may be a problem too. Hopefully it would work out in the end.
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Steve W.

one in wild of being bona fide unless found by the well known and therefore a critical problem of being bona fide ( did I just repeat myself ? ). I;ve known people and myself, that would be somewhat afraid of even finding such animal because of what, non-believing or whatever and not knowing really or cost of verifying such finding. BUT why it is of this reason when we know that there wasn't near as much non-believing of the subocs found and the albino atroxes found. Is it the status of the alterna ? I don't know.....
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

When Dave L found the albino suboc in 1997, it wasn't 1 day before I started hearing "he bought that at a show and brought it with him" rumors.

Of course, the snake had an intact parietal scale (which the cb strains at that time did not) and it had suboc ticks on it (which no cb snake ought) and so those rumors were short-lived.

The problem with the wc albino alterna is that there are so many cb hybrids and more value placed upon wc than cb in this species (the reverse is true with subocs, for example, owing to their poor track record as captives). Also, we already have had examples of unscrupulous individuals lying about where they caught snakes in order to drive the market value of their captures up. So . . .

Troy

Why are wc subocs considered less hardy in captivity? Never heard that before. I still have my FIRST suboc I caught on Juno Road on June 8, 1981! Another 4' adult I caught west of Langtry in 1985 is also doing just fine. I've had better luck with wc subocs [longevity wise] than alterna. The longest I've had an alterna is a wild caught Pandale dirt male I collected in May of 1986=19yrs, 3 months and looking good still. Just my 2 cents worth. By the way, Troy congrats on your last trip! Your lucky you have Marla with you, that doubles your alterna catch!

Most everyone I know, at least living in humid NC and east Texas, has had a very different experience than you with most wc subocs - namely, they go off feed and die (if adults) or puke and die (if juveniles). Obviously, there are exceptions to this experience - I've had some do very well also.

Troy

The little juvie I was given as a consolation prize is doing VERY well in her custom-made cave. I collected several rocks and some soil from the base of the cuts that had already fallen and made a small cut so to speak. The huge adult old timer male doesn't eat often, but follows rat pups around tongue flicking and shows minimal interest when presented in daylight. but they are gone the next morning! The setups are kept a bit more on the cooler side than the rest of my critters, as I believe they spend the majority of their time hunkered down in the rocks. The big male just shed a perfect slough with a small water bowl only. They don't need much, if any, if actions are minimal and temps are on the cool side. Just some observations from south Texas. Love 'em!
Todd Hughes

The credibility factor definately comes into play in all these cases. Luckily the suboc's were found by Dave and there was no second guessing him by us who have known him for so long.
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Steve W.

Why is it no one is saying who supposedly found this snake. It was Bob Sloan who is saying he found the snake last year. You guys take it from there.

ECT