Reptile & Amphibian Forums

By the time you can physically see theres a problem, its far to late.

Most things with snakes or keeping any animal are nothing but series of small problems to solve. Keeping kingsnakes is very easy, not many problems.

But as with all things, there are thousands of degrees of success and failure. Not one degree of success or one degree of failure.

Many years ago, I read a book(dang book) It said, many/most snakes go their whole lifes without drinking water. I often wondered about that. I knew, that if I did not give my captives water, they would be dead. So of course I thought that comment was a pile of BS.

In the years that follow, I did realize that most snakes do not have open water to drink from. And in reality my only have the oppertunity to drink a few times a year. Again, my captives would die doing that.

So I did a test. I raised a neonate pyro to adult size without ever offering water to drink. I indeed learned to do that and I was very surprised to see the difference.

One comment below mentioned, but I offer water and a moist substrate. That is fine but you must consider those to be bandaids, that is they are tools to fix a problem, not prevent a problem. The key is to prevent the loss of moisture from the body, which by difinition is, dehydration. TO prevent dehydration is the key, not adding water and moisture.

In nature, there behavior is directly related to controlling hydration, this is first and formost, then its followed by calories, that is food. If they cannot maintain hydration, they seek total cover, I do not care what time of year it is, or what part of the country. Then if they cannot find food, they seek total cover, again, I do not care what time of year it is. As I mentioned many times, this is the design advantage of reptiles as opposed to mammals. To conserve when conditions are not favorable.

Back to hydration and the pyro, indeed by preventing air movement and related moisture loss, the pyro had no problem growing and shedding, in fact, it was in superior shape compared to my other captives. One major difference was stool consistancy. Its stools were not watery or loose, they were solid and firm. Much like what I see in nature.

Again as mentioned below, the one poster mentioned he looks for symtons of dehydration, like shriveling up around the tail or something to that effect. Now if you would take a minute to think, if any other animal you waited until it began to be visually apparent, you would have serious trouble. I believe its the same with snakes. But the time you see it, its very advanced.

The problem I see on this forum is, many are confused as to what symtoms mean. For instance, picky feeding, many here want to believe its about genetics and types of snakes. That is so so wrong. Picky feeding, narrow selection of prey items, also, lack of activity are symtons, and are often symtons of improper conditions. Of course there could be many other reasons, but dehydration is by far the most common. Let me add, for those who do not understand, its more about borderline or slight dehydration, then total dehydration. As with anything, there are again many degrees, severe dehydration results in total stopage of feeding and a quick death. So the problem normally lies in non-clinical dedyration, that is, dehydration without apparent symtoms. Good luck FR

great post frank
i beleive and maybe im wrong but i think its beleived that stubborn feeders are doomed from the beginning through natural selection.im somewhat of a beleiver of this and would like to hear your thoughts on it.in nature a clutch of say 12kings how many make it to breeding adults?and why? hope ya get what im trying to say kinda like sea turtles its beleived such large clutches are natures way of insuring future generations, anyway great stuff,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

Of course very few make it in nature, but its not about being physically weaker then the others. Weak in evolutionary terms is by design. For instance, the habitat is constantly changing and a species fails to keep up. That species then fails. Its not about certain individuals.

Also, in a clutch, only the lucky ones will find the conditions to support it to adulthood. Consider, I hope you don't allow hawks, owls, skunks, etc to invade your snake room. If they did, all your snakes would be considered weak and fail(be consumed)

The point here is, you must consider your husbandry perfect and perfectly consistant in order to blame the snakes for failing or being weak. Is your husbandry perfect, and perfectly applied and consistantly applied?? I doubt it, I know mine isn't.

Another point is, the deli cup/shoebox paradign. To think that deli cups and shoeboxes/sweater boxes, are equal to what snakes choose in nature is absurd. To think of it has good husbandry is also absurd. Sure it can be made to work, and its can be very handy, but to think of it as Good/ideal/suitable husbandry is silly. Its merely easy and cheap.

If people think that the delicup/shoebox husbandry will express what a species of snake is suppose to behave like is again absurd.

Surely even the best caging will not totally express a species full behaviors. One big reason is, reptiles are layers of behaviors based on the prevaling conditions. That is, they behave differently in drought years, in wet years, in hurricanes, etc. They have a huge bag of behaviors that are not often used or ever used.

Many here are interested in expressing more behaviors that those expressed from delicups and shoeboxes. Those folks need to understand, keepers are not restricted by deli cups and sweater boxes.

Back to the question, I believe most of our weak individuals are not weak in a genetic sense, but merely a product of our marginal husbandry.

Someone here remember a blairs I raised from a hatchling, his name was arnold. This blairs was an extremely lite individual and had huge wide red/orange bands. Well I raised him to 51 inches and built like Arnold. He started as a half sized dwarf hatchling. I got it for half price because of that. FR

frank first let me say you have my upmost respect and admiration. my question is,,lets generically take any n.american colubrid lets say a lampropeltis of some type, optimal wild parents lay a wild nested clutch of say 10 are you saying all 10 are/will be perfect and healthy genetically?when hatched? w/none being inferior in the clutch?from the start?, i beleive and maybe im wrong that a few within a clutch unpredictable of course (sometimes none,maybe?) will be inferior weak or doomed for lack of a better term. ive had neonates like that in diff. ssp. im sure that would have died but through babying them eventually got them to come around and be for all intense/visual purposes great healthy adults now!. also i dont beleive that doomed ones carry a doomed/weak gene as some do.
so my question to you a healthy clutch from healthy adults will produce 100%healthy babies consistantly if optimal conditions are met for the entire process as is done in nature? just curious,,,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
P.S this is an old pic of my easternking cleo RIP old friend. he was produced by buzz jheel of ETHS and lived for 16years

FR what do you beleive the benefit is in in F1,F2 on and on as concerned w/feeding habits? its my opinion that with some species that have trouble recognizing rodents as a food source naturally come around through several captive generations of accepting rodents?, say a F4 compared to a F1 ? am i waaaaay off???
,,,,,,,thomas davis

A couple examples of weaker or less fit snakes are the albinos and two headed snakes that are occasionally found. If these inferiorities exist is there any reason to believe there are not snakes born with slower and faster strike speeds, stronger and weaker Jacobson's Organs, better and poorer eyesight, etc.

You hit the nail on the head, they probably occur at the same rate. For albinsim in nature, maybe something like 1/200,000 and two headed snakes, like 1/1,000,000. Both are just ballpark guesses, but you get the point.

If picky feeders occured at that rate, we indeed would not be having this conversation. Thanks for pointing that out. FR

Frank tell me a little more. Maybe I am slow but I missed the part where you said how you kept the animal from dehydrating. I saw reduce air movement??? I don't understand what you mean. If I can get my snakes off water wow what a break from water bowls. Seriously though what the hell did you do.
Later Jason

I have been keeping adult rosys without water for years because they don't seem to need it as much as other species. The only offer water to neonates and gravid females.

Then I have been keeping rubber boas for years that need a good saoking every 2 weeks.

What I have a problem with specifically are the neonate Florida kings which seem to dehydrate very easily. If they don't get water in a couple days their tails and skin looks dehydrated. I moisten the paper towels during transport to shows but they still show signs of dehydration. Some even dehydrate in their deli cup when a water dish is provided so I have to provide damp paper towels as well to keep them hydrated but this causes skin problems.

I don't have this problem with cal kings, hondurans and other colubrids. Just the Florida kings.

I would apply it to how to find babies in nature, my bet here is, they are placed in very humid conditions.

A little story along the same lines. I have a pond and its has some marshy areas. We see blindsnakes there from time to time.

As you can imagine, its very humid there. Once I picked up a blindsnake and I could hear it shrivel up, kinda like rice crispys. I imediately put it down in the moist plants. of course thats an extreme example of dehydration.

I am absolutely sure, there are differences between these different types of kings. But the same approach could cover all them. Keep them very humid and secure. FR

I think you are very correct regarding a lack of feeding being due to improper replication of wild conditions/environment. However, in all living creatures there are spectrum of physiological states and or traits. So when some animals in a given clutch eat and some do not, it may be caused by borderline conditions as you stated or differences in ability to adapt to or handle environmental stressers or a combination of both. The natural differences in physiological arousal are congenital and therefore will be genetic or environmental (i.e. conditions the eggs were under). If genetic, I do not see why traits conducive to hardiness could not be enhanced by selective breeding. Is this the "right" thing to do? One could argue no, because like you said this would be making the snakes adapt to us instead of us adapting our husbandry for them. So I do not think it is an issue of is it possible to be done as much as if should be done. Just my thoughts. Great post, FR.

Alton

Alton. to follow up on your point of having the snakes adapt to our husbandry. perhaps that is not wrong. after all we are raising snakes to live in captivity and not in the wild. perhaps it is better that we breed for those individuals that do well in captivity. perhaps not. what do you think?
Rin

We are raising snakes in captivity so we are selecting for captive bred snakes. You see snakes that are known for being high strung or biters advertised as "tame" all the time. Do these snakes fare better in captivity than their more "wild natured" kin? Are they more likely to breed?

I'd say yes. And to answer your other question, since we are not raising them for reintroduction into the wild I'd say selecting for those that are adapted to captivity is not only inevitible, but probably good for the keeper and the kept.

Too bad it is going to come down to captive existence or none at all for a lot of species down the road.

Very very interesting points and a truly interesting experiment. You have obviously been willing to question points you read that don't make sens to you. I sure applaud that attitude. Thanks for the post and the info. BTW, in regards to hydration, I become very curious about the actual requirements with an escapee in my house a few years back. I had a hatchling Everglades Rat escape and no amount of searching ever turned up his hiding spot. I eventually gave up the search. A full 167 days later, he turned up alive and well - but skinny. He thrived afterward. During that whole time, there wasn't any obvious direct source of water. I always wondered how he made it. You helped explain some options.

"many/most snakes go their whole lives without drinking water" WHAT A CROCK of B.S.!!! Do the MILLIONS of snakes in Florida and the Amazon basin and other wetlands on this planet realize this? What book was that in?LOL!!!

Hmmmmmmmmm try the other half of the world. The point is the same. Snakes keep their hydration, not by drinking water, but by gaining water from the food and not loosing it.

That is how snakes work, its not about whether they can drink, or even do drink.

Its also about problem solving. Its about picky feeders. You can pick examples and I can pick opposite examples and we can do this all day long and no good or progress will ever come of it.

The problem remains, what causes picky feeders? As I mentioned, being picky is not a inhereted trait, its a symtom.

A little tiny thought for you, I can take, and I bet, you can take a pair too, any pair of these reluctant feeders and get them to thrive, then breed them, and their offspring will not be all picky feeders, or het for picky feeders. The clutches may have a few picky feeders, just like the ones before them. You can raise those up, and if it was genetic, they should all be picky feeders, guess what, they are not.

Which leads to this, its not genetic. There is no evidence its genetic. There is no genetic progression. Which leads to this, its merely an excuse to not blame your own conditions. If you do not want to admit that, then great.

Also, I said, hydration is a common problem that causes this, not the only problem. Not the only problem.

So for you folks to jump on, On no it can't be this or can't be that, does one thing very effectively, its does not allow progress in understanding the problem. And sir, the problem keeps on exsisting. FR

put it THAT way, it makes sense, sorry if i was acting up again.

What about Blood Corns? Are they not a genetic mutation that is notorious for being picky feeders and frail as well?
By the way I just had a clutch of greeri hatch and I set them up together in an aquarium with a 1/2 layer of sand on the bottom which I doused with water so it will get hard then I put some round rocks down in a cluster and put a layer of soil on top of that up to the level of the round rocks and then I put flat rocks over the round rocks. I also put a layer of loose bark chips up to the level of the flat rocks and made a big pile of bark chips on one side about 2 inches deep. In the middle are two flat rocks on top of each other the one on top is concave so there is a space between them. On the other side is a large water dish. There is also a juniper branch in there.I still need to add a light.
Already I have seen the snakes make tunnel under the flat rocks that go down into the round rocks. I saw one of them basking underneath the flat rock and go down the tunnel when I lifted it just like I see zonata do in the wild. And the first one to shed used the Juniper branch like I have found shed skins on bushes in the wild.
Weather they will feed better and coexist without eating each other remains to be seen but it certainly is rewarding to see their behavior so close to what I have seen in the wild so far.
Oh and I have to disagree with you about waterfalls, I have seen plenty of zonata, rubber boas and racers near noisy waterfalls, if the rock and sun is right they are there.