Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Anyone ever have trouble breeding rabbits and rats in the same room?

I'm going to be adding a few rabbits for my bigger snakes, and want to put them in the room with the rats. It's an a/c'd shed about 20'x16', and the rabbits would be on one end, the rats on the other.

thanks

>>Anyone ever have trouble breeding rabbits and rats in the same room?
>>
>>I'm going to be adding a few rabbits for my bigger snakes, and want to put them in the room with the rats. It's an a/c'd shed about 20'x16', and the rabbits would be on one end, the rats on the other.
>>
>>thanks

The only worries I would say about rabbits is be absolutely sure they don't overheat...it WILL kill them in no time. You can get stacking hutch cages, which you'll want in that small a room. Also, get a good book on it. You don't keep pairs or stuff like that. Rabbits all get their own cage and are only together for a moment to breed etc and not til they are 5 or 6 months old. Just an FYI.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

The problem I see is going to be ventilation. Rabbits need alot of fresh air or they will get sick and die. I breed rats in a AC barn that I know for a fact I could not breed rabbits in and I change the bedding twice a week. You realy need to have them out side.

Hope this helps.

First off, I just want to say that in no way am I an expert... this is just based on what I have done, and what has worked extremely well for me. I choose to raise rabbits because mice/rats smell so bad & a loose rabbit doesn't bother me as much as a loose rat!!!

My husband built a large "dog pen" type enclosure and lined the ground with chicken wire. We put straw over that and provide two or three rabbit houses. We started off with three (1.2) adult rabbits. We provide the basics (plenty of food & water), and they have provided us with a constant supply of feeders, plus some future breeders. I have Ball Pythons, all of which will eat a "fuzzy" or "hopper" rabbit, and my husband has monitors which also eat "fuzzies". When we have a surplus of "teenage" (3 1/2 pounders) rabbits, our local reptile shop trades us for mice & rats. This allows us to be sure that our animals get a variety in their diets.
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Tammy

"Give me the luxuries of life and I will gladly do without the necessities." ~~ Frank Lloyd Wright

We have had a hard time getting our rabbits started. Could you possible post a few pics of how your "pen" is built please. I have a "hutch" with 5 adults in it 2.3 all separated of course. I had 2 litters I lost for ????? and it has been difficult to say the least. You can even e-mail me direct if you wish: kjanda1214@yahoo.com, any help you can provide me would be appreciated.

Thanks
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2.1 RTB (Zander, Ridick, Liliana)
1.1 Burms (Vladamir, Natalia)
0.1 Lavender Albino Retic (Katerina)
1.0 100% Het Tiger (Nicholi)
"New strategy R-2, Let the Wookie Win!!!"

I know most people don't keep a "colony" of rabbits, but I have found this set up works well for ME There is a "door" connecting what is basically two pens that can be closed if needed. I have found that rabbits are very social and I have had multiple litters at a time with no problems. Here are "front" views:

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Tammy

"Give me the luxuries of life and I will gladly do without the necessities." ~~ Frank Lloyd Wright

The entire pen (two pens with a door in the middle) measure about 6'D x 20'L I think the wire runs 4' high, and chicken wire is a must on the ground!!! Setting the houses on wood allows the rabbits to get out of the sun & lie on the cool dirt. Here are some "end" views:

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Tammy

"Give me the luxuries of life and I will gladly do without the necessities." ~~ Frank Lloyd Wright

>>First off, I just want to say that in no way am I an expert... this is just based on what I have done, and what has worked extremely well for me. I choose to raise rabbits because mice/rats smell so bad & a loose rabbit doesn't bother me as much as a loose rat!!!
>>
>>My husband built a large "dog pen" type enclosure and lined the ground with chicken wire. We put straw over that and provide two or three rabbit houses. We started off with three (1.2) adult rabbits. We provide the basics (plenty of food & water), and they have provided us with a constant supply of feeders, plus some future breeders. I have Ball Pythons, all of which will eat a "fuzzy" or "hopper" rabbit, and my husband has monitors which also eat "fuzzies". When we have a surplus of "teenage" (3 1/2 pounders) rabbits, our local reptile shop trades us for mice & rats. This allows us to be sure that our animals get a variety in their diets.
>>-----
>>Tammy
>>
>>"Give me the luxuries of life and I will gladly do without the necessities." ~~ Frank Lloyd Wright

I don't want to sound like I am blasting you but this is one of the worse ways to keep bunnies. I don't know how long you have done it this way but I think you have been lucky, pure and simple.
Bunnies don't do group housing. Sooner or later you are gonna lose them to each other.
Pens available to predators and escape.
On the ground where they will, sooner or later become infested with numerous parasites and disease.
I am all for something different. But I wouldn't recommend going against all the basic rules of husbandry.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

HAHAHA WOW Someone read a book
Out of 3 original adults we have had 9 litters so far and have not lost a single one that I did not kill myself. How is that bad husbandry?
I have raised rabbits before and I know a lot of people that raise them. It is cruel to keep any animal in a tiny cage where they have to walk on wire. Would you like that? My rabbits in my pens, that the pictures were of, are very healthy and as happy as a captive animal can be. Rabbits are very social animals (like cows, goats and chickens which I also have). You take a social animal or person and tightly confine them out of the habitat they need and you have problems.
You sound like you read a book and relay what the book said. Hutches are good if you live in an urban area with a 1/4 acre yard. I have much more land than that and keep the rabbits so they can act natural. None of these rabbits have ever lived in a hutch.
You mentioned predators. Sure a hawk can swoop in and grab one. I hope I see it done if it happens. I have seen raptors catch rabbits and other animals while I was working on my families’ farm. It is an awesome site. They would have to be very accurate to get through the trees and land on a rabbit in the pen. It is very unlikely it will happen. If it ever does I will put wire over the top. My 90 pound dogs (Lab and Bernese Mountain Dog) can easily tear or climb the fence. They don't, just like they don't mess with my goats and chickens which are kept in my back yard together. (You ever see a chicken walk up to a dog and eat corn the dog is standing on? I have) My rabbits are safe with the dogs guarding them. They keep predators away.
You mentioned parasites. Which is worse: a tightly confined animal with very little room that is caged over its own poo and pee and can not get fresh air? Or a rabbit that has plenty of room to exercise, play, get its choice of water bottles, and have multiple places to get out of the weather? The rabbit with the most room and exercise will always be healthier. Also the chickens eat all the ticks and bugs which keep the rest of the animals and people tick free. I havent see a tick or an abundance of bugs since I got the chickens.
1. It seams your basic rules of husbandry are not correct in every situation.
2. Saying rabbits do not do group housing is totally wrong, and I feel sorry for rabbits kept with out companions. You ever see them huddle together when it is cold? Play with each other? Etc.
3. I am very proud of all my enclosures and they will not escape. If they do, there is plenty of vegetation for them to live on until I catch them in my trap.
4. Ever hear of a rabbit dyeing of fright, it is not uncommon when they are not used to dogs and one approaches a hutch. They have nowhere to run and drop dead. (I am serious)
5. You said I would lose them all. Yes I will, I feed them to snakes and monitors. HAHA
Oh, one more thing. There are 2 pens connected by a door I can close. This is to separate the males and females to give the females a break from time to time.
Out of 3 original adults we have had 9 litters so far and have not lost a single one that I did not kill myself. How is that bad husbandry?

Do your rabbits a favor and SAY NO TO HUTCHES

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Ed

These heat lamps make my electric bill to high.

>>HAHAHA WOW Someone read a book
>>Out of 3 original adults we have had 9 litters so far and have >>not lost a single one that I did not kill myself. How is that >>bad husbandry?

I raised rabbits for several years, so all my experience is that, not read from a book, but actual experience.

In what time frame did you get 9 whole litters? A year? Two? Awfully short time to test your theory.
BTW, the post I responded too is a different sign on. Are you the same person with two responses or just jumping in?

>>I have raised rabbits before and I know a lot of people that >>raise them. It is cruel to keep any animal in a tiny cage >>where they have to walk on wire. Would you like that?

One, I am not a rabbit. Two I don't keep mine in TINY cages.Two, IMO it is cruel to keep an animal in a way that it can be infected, infested or preyed on.

>>Rabbits are very social animals (like cows, goats and chickens >>which I also have). You take a social animal or person and >>tightly confine them out of the habitat they need and you have >>problems.

Oddly, I never did. What sorts of problems might we have?

>>Hutches are good if you live in an urban area with a 1/4 acre >>yard. I have much more land than that and keep the rabbits so >>they can act natural.

If you want them to act natural then release them to the wild. You're anthropomorphizing.

I had 129A but I still kept them hutched. It kept the coyotes, neighbor's dogs, feral cats, weasels, skunks and raptors out of them. It kept them from sharing diseases with the wild critters too.
Now I have less land but still keep them hutched and in an enclosable building. I am not keen on introduceing West Nile Virus to my family. Or any of several other possiblitys.

>>You mentioned predators. Sure a hawk can swoop in and grab >>one. I hope I see it done if it happens. I have seen raptors >>catch rabbits and other animals while I was working on my >>families’ farm. It is an awesome site. They would have to be >>very accurate to get through the trees and land on a rabbit in >>the pen. It is very unlikely it will happen. If it ever does I >>will put wire over the top. My 90 pound dogs (Lab and Bernese >>Mountain Dog) can easily tear or climb the fence. They don't, >>just like they don't mess with my goats and chickens which are >>kept in my back yard together. (You ever see a chicken walk up >>to a dog and eat corn the dog is standing on? I have) My >>rabbits are safe with the dogs guarding them. They keep >>predators away.

You have been lucky. When your system fails I hope you have the strength of character to come tell us. I am sorry but I see way too many problems waiting to happen to say it will continue working fine for you.

>>You mentioned parasites. Which is worse: a tightly confined >>animal with very little room that is caged over its own poo >>and pee and can not get fresh air? Or a rabbit that has plenty >>of room to exercise, play, get its choice of water bottles, >>and have multiple places to get out of the weather? The rabbit >>with the most room and exercise will always be healthier.

Now us tiny hutch users don't clean either?? With this attitude I am surprised you use a pen at all. Why not release them and then just hunt them down when you need one. I am sure the bunnies would be happier.

Except for those keen flukes, tularemia, intestinal parasites, fleas, mites, lice, diseases. (chickens can't get them all)
I raised my bunnies to eat myself. I didn't want to infect myself or my family with any interesting parasites.

>>1. It seams your basic rules of husbandry are not correct in >>every situation.

I didn't say that. I just said you are breaking an awful lot of basic rules and at some point it is gonna turn around and bite you.

>>4. Ever hear of a rabbit dyeing of fright, it is not uncommon >>when they are not used to dogs and one approaches a hutch. ?>>They have nowhere to run and drop dead. (I am serious)

A rabbit can die this way out in an open field. My rabbits know the dogs and cats in the area and usually kick them in the face, given the opportunity. And your point is?

>>5. You said I would lose them all.

No, I said you were gambling against odds.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

>>BTW, the post I responded too is a different sign on. Are you the same person with two responses or just jumping in?

Sonya,

I can assure you, my husband & I are two different people (please take that light-heartedly & not sarcasticly). He has a fairly lengthy (and well respected) posting history in the monitor forum, and my history is primarily in the Ball Python forum.

We have not been breeding rabbits for very long; around six months. So our 9 litters in 6 months, without any trouble, is not a historic record, but it has worked well for us. My husband raised rabbits growing up on his family's farm. The people we got our adults from raised them in the same (colony/pen) manner, and there are many others who raise them in a colony setting as well.

It was not my intention to cause hard feelings. I was using the forum as it was intended -- to share experiences.

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Tammy

"Give me the luxuries of life and I will gladly do without the necessities." ~~ Frank Lloyd Wright

>>We have not been breeding rabbits for very long; around six months. So our 9 litters in 6 months, without any trouble, is not a historic record, but it has worked well for us. My husband raised rabbits growing up on his family's farm. The people we got our adults from raised them in the same (colony/pen) manner, and there are many others who raise them in a colony setting as well.
>>
>>It was not my intention to cause hard feelings. I was using the forum as it was intended -- to share experiences.

Nor was it mine to insult or create hard feelings. I will defend myself though.
Again, six months isn't even enough time to get a second generation. Getting 9 litters out of two does is impressive...I am assuming you are culling down before weaning and that the does will not have a long reproductive life.
Again, a colony may work for some, especially in a fast result, short term, but I would not recommend it.
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Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

Yes... we are constantly culling. Feeding rabbits to ball pythons require that we feed them the babies. I do allow, usually two per litter, to survive past weaning. We are able to seperate the rabbits, and constantly learn by watching their behavior. I knew when I first posted that our method is not the most widely practiced. I also know that the does will not have a long reproductive (or otherwise) life. My intention is to raise feeders for our reptiles, and avoid raising rats & mice.
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Tammy

"Give me the luxuries of life and I will gladly do without the necessities." ~~ Frank Lloyd Wright

I hate to make waves here but you husband said something about the rabbits living in a more natural setting and the social aspects and better quality of life. It is obvious he has never born a child or he would realize that giving birth to 9 litters in 6 months is anything but humane treatment. Against cages but appoving over breeding a doe to death. Doesn't make sence to me!

I do understand that you are not producing bunnies for fun or pleasure, but for snake food. Most of us that raise rats or mice allow them a rest period between litters so that the animal can be in peak health.

I do think you will run into problems breeding this way.
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

---"It is obvious he has never born a child"---

haha, That was funny. No I have never "born" any kids. My wife told me that if I had we would be rich right now

We have given the females breaks by closing the door between the pens and keeping the males and females seperate. They are actually seperated right now. I could have and probably should have seperated them more to give the females more breaks, but my wife keeps getting more snakes to feed!!!

Please tell my wife that we have enough animals around our home now.

Seriously though, It is wonderful to look outside in the mornings and see the rabbits running, jumping, and playing together. They have a lot of room to get excercise or to lay in the shade to cool off. I have yet to see a fight, a male kill a baby, or any "unsatisfactory" behavior. Well, except for one time when one was eating out of my hand and nibbled my finger. HAHA

If anyone doesn't agree with keeping rabbits in roomy outdoor enclosures, that is fine. They are your rabbits. Our thoughts on the subject differ. I have kept rabbits in different ways and I have always had the best luck when they were in roomy pens outside. I have produced many healthy clutches since I first kept rabbits as a kid.

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Ed

These heat lamps make my electric bill to high.

Sorry for yelling.
DeMak

Sonya,

No offense taken Like I said, this is just how we have had success. The people who raised our original adults kept them as a human food supply and kept them the same way. I am NOT an expert, however I do have a medical background in both animals (vet tech) & humans (Paramedic). I would not personally eat them, but our snakes and monitors are not as picky

I did quite a bit of research, and here is one example of what I've found:

http://www.awionline.org/Lab_animals/biblio/feed-soc.html states:

"Rabbits housed in social groups benefit both from the company of each other and from exercise..."
"Observations made during routine husbandry suggested that the group-housed rabbits were more active, engaged in frequent affiliative behaviour with other rabbits such as grooming, playing and were more willing to approach the technicians. The rabbits also seemed to make more use of the enrichment provided for them than when single-housed."
"Given the choice, rabbits spent an average of 79% of observed time in close proximity with others."

My research, and personal experience, shows that while my method is not the "norm" on this forum, it is not unheard of. It's not exactly the "norm" to feed "fuzzy bunnies" to Ball Pythons either, but it works for me.

We maintain a SMALL colony (1.2 adults, 1.3 future breeders) the rest we either freeze, feed live, or trade for mice/rats.

Rabbit pellets are also an excellent fertilizer!!

Our dogs are actually protective of "their" rabbits, which reduces (but does not 100% eliminate) the predator problem.

Free range chickens have wiped out all signs of fleas & ticks

Hopefully we can "agree to disagree"

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Tammy

"Give me the luxuries of life and I will gladly do without the necessities." ~~ Frank Lloyd Wright

I wasn't going to get involved in this discussion but just couldn't resist. I have never heard of raising rabbits in colonies. If you look around your yard, the barnyard and fields you will notice that the only time you see more than one rabbit in one place is when they are doing thier courtship dance which looks a lot like a game of leap-frog. In the wild they live solitary lives meeting up only to mate. The doe and her kits will huddle to keep warm or for protection. Otherwise they are not social animals.

I kept bunnies in cages for years and never had problems with sore hocks or other problems cages can cause. You can take precautions to prevent these problems. Likewise, my rabbits never had worms, ticks or fleas because they were off the ground and the legs of the cages were kept in tins of oil to prevent the parasites from climbing.

I had a co-worker who wanted a bunny for his kids. He kept it much like you are keeping your colony and it and his pet dog actually played together, that is, until a neighbors dog jumped the fence and ate the bunny! Your dogs may not bother your livestock but what about stray dogs and other 4-legged wildlife that feed on small animals?

I for one would consider a rabbit kept on the ground where they can be exposed to mites and worms comparable to catching a wild bunny and feeding it to my snakes. I for one just wouldn't do it!

There is room, however, for varied opinions and experimentation. I hope you never encounter parasites from your bunnies and that the males don't decide to beat each other up.

Best of luck with the colony!
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

Mmmmmmm I have seen several wild cotton tails in my yard all summer that eat and play together all the time. Sometimes there are 4 and 5 out there at a time, both young and old. I wonder what gives?

MissHisssss

{sigh}
I was hoping that we could, at this point, "agree to disagree", but you state that:

"In the wild they live solitary lives meeting up only to mate. The doe and her kits will huddle to keep warm or for protection. Otherwise they are not social animals."

and that is 100% false. Please consider the following references:

USDA:
The wild rabbit is gregarious, living in family groups in natural colonies or warrens (Cowan 1987)... Social behaviors include allogrooming and group foraging activities... Observations on domestic rabbits have shown that there are few differences in their behavior compared with their wild counterparts"

Comfortable Quarters for Rabbits:
Rabbits are gregarious animals and, therefore, should be housed in compatible groups... Each rabbit is provided with substantially more living space and hence has much better opportunities for exercising in a group-pen than in a single-cage. The quality of life of group-housed rabbits is significantly improved... compared to those kept in solitary confinement... Group members spend an average of 79% of the time in close proximity with others... Behavioral disorders, which typically occur in single-caged rabbits, are virtually absent in group-housed rabbits... Compatible group-housing does not significantly affect stress-sensitive variables and infectious disease susceptibility"

If you are still not satified that rabbits are social animals, do some research, the internet is a powerful tool

As far as your concern of "Your dogs may not bother your livestock but what about stray dogs and other 4-legged wildlife that feed on small animals?"

Many people who raise animals employee "Guardian" breeds of dogs. These dogs do not just "get along" with "defenseless" species. They guard and protect them. We have witnessed our dogs doing just that, and one of them will actually alert us if there is anything that needs our attention; a baby that has wandered to far from the nest, or even a fledgling bird that once fell from it's nest. The dogs are not a guarentee, but they do offer some protection (in addition to our fences).

While we may not be in agreement, hopefully I have proved that we can have differing opions without either being "wrong".

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Tammy

"Give me the luxuries of life and I will gladly do without the necessities." ~~ Frank Lloyd Wright

>>Many people who raise animals employee "Guardian" breeds of dogs.

What breed of dog do you use? The area I want to retire in has mountain lions and I want to raise chickens, goats and pigs. I saw a herd of Boer goats with a livestock guard dog in Tehama County, CA. but couldn't figure out who they belonged to.

DeMak

We have a Bernese Mountain Dog. Check out http://www.lgd.org/ for more information on the various "guardian" breeds. I have seen these dogs at work and it is truely remarkable!!
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Tammy

"Give me the luxuries of life and I will gladly do without the necessities." ~~ Frank Lloyd Wright

Hi...

I raise rabbits for the meat industrial here in Florida. I take over a 1000 fryers a month to market. All my rabbits are kepted in wire cages (36"x24"x24" that hang from the roof. If you keep rabbits on the ground they will get worms and other parasites.

Great info site.
www.californianrabbits.com/readingroom.htm

Hope this helps.
James

James,

Thanks for the link!!! I am always willing to read & learn
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Tammy

"Give me the luxuries of life and I will gladly do without the necessities." ~~ Frank Lloyd Wright

James, I live in Jacksonville,FL and i'm in desperate need of a constant hefty supply of rabbits for my burmese pythons. If you want to work out a deal, please respond to this post, or email me at doctorphaeton@yahoo.com.