Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i don't understand why any breeder would have a birth records page. i believe it hurts the market for everybody. if i see that you've produced 100 spiders this year and your asking 4000 then i'm not paying 4 grand for one when i know you've produced 100!!one more thing if i see you've produced 100 spiders i know the market is going to drop big time so why one buy at all.

just my two cc's
bigteddy keeping it real

It's called honesty. First off the ball python market is growing daily and even if all the really big breeders out there produced 100 of the morph they specialize in, there still wouldn't be enough supply to go around to us small time breeders. Second if you think when you buy a hatchling, that when you produce from it you are still going to get the same price, than you are just stupid. Prices drop on everything, not just ball pythons. Me personally, I would rather know what a breeder is working on and how many babies they are producing instead of them saying, limited availability when they are really producing 100. The honest ones tell you roughly how many babies they produce and those are the ones that get my business, as they aren't trying to screw me out of my hard earned money with false hope that I'll be getting a false price in the future for my babies. If I spend $2k for a pair of het pieds, and in 3-4 yrs produce 10-12 pieds from the original het female and some possibles that I produced and get $2k per pied, well that's well worth my time and money. The same goes for a spider, if you buy a male spider for 4k and in 2 yrs breed it to 4-5 females and produce 10-12 spiders at $2k each how is that not worth the investment. Heck even if they are down to 1k that is still doubling or trippling your investment. Just my .02 like it or not and most share the same attitude from what I've seen. Josh Hutto
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2.1 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2)
1.0 het albino (ben siegel)
1.0 het citrus hypo(gulf coast line)
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
6 white eggs from pastel to norm breeding
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

I agree, I appreciate the honesty of breeders laying it out on the table for people to know that some morphs are getting up there in the numbers as far as availability. I think it is much better than realizing there was 10 times more than you had expected floating around out there after you buy into something. To keep this short it is also safe to say not every snake will produce every year,just because people are buying them does not mean they will produce. Tom Stevens

Hi,
I disagree with you all and agree with the original poster. You all need to grow up. To me, it is a huge leap to go from a valid marketing concern (and he is absolutly right in his thinking btw) to it's because of "honesty" that the birthing pages have become popular. Oh please ! It's doing more harm than good actually. The birthing records page wasn't put up on any site because of honesty - that may be your perception, but it's wrong. It was put up on a site purely because of ego. That is all. You have to realize grasshoppers that this is still a very small industry where one breeder can crash the market very quickly and happens all too often, and/or one breeder, or several, over produce (look what happened to Spiders last year - and now the same thing with Mojaves this year). Fact of the matter is you will never know the true amount of animals being sold in this country and frankly would be surprised if you knew the true numbers some breeders are producing. The smart ones don't tell you because they understand that perception is everything. Our entire economy is based on it. It has nothing to do with honesty or dishonesty and I would be the first to tell you to do everything with only the highest degree of integrity possible. But it really irks me when people come out and say how many clutches or animals they have because, as the original poster insinuated, people really are apt to think twice about making the purchase or pay a certain price when there is a perceived surplus of a particular morph out there. Just think if it was $4,000 going to be put in your pocket that isn't now because someone got cold feet ? And to the poster who says there is so much demand out there that there is enough for the big breeders and little breedrs, go out there and try to sell Mojaves or Pastels right now. Good luck...nobody is buying right now because of all the jug heads who want to be RDR groupies giving out all this specific information. I wouldn't buy either frankly at this point. Ask yourselves this...why is something high priced in the first place ? The answer is because it is rare. What would happen if there suddenly were too many morphs out there - would a morph then be rare ? Stop and think before jumping on the bandwagon folks - your beginning to sould like a bunch of liberals !!! My $2
Paul Edwards

I have to agree and disagree - I agree that honesty has nothing to do with birth pages - I'll even agree with the ego part - but for someone looking for quality they are an invaluable tool. Without doubt I would much rather pay the extra money to someone that is consitantly producing from a quality line of animals than one that gets lucky with one animal or clutch. As far as crashing the market - look how many people are producing albinos - I don't see that market crashing anytime soon. PK puts out hundreds of Pieds every year and that market isn't crashing. Pastels - I'm not seeing them lasting too long in the classifieds.

Rarity is not the only reason that prices stay high - if people pay $50 for Filet Mignon why would you only charge $10? But unlike Filet Mignon if snakes don't sell they only become more valuable. Prices will drop - that is inevitable - and that will bring more people into the hobby - new interest, new morphs and new combos being produced - that my freind is what sustains the industry. To dwell on price is insignificant - with one clutch you've made the price of that spider - bottom line - even if the prices drop down to $1000 - your still making money.
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Tosha

"One of these days i am going to wake up..look around...and realize my place looks more like "Ace Venturas"s than my own." Coldthumb

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul "JP"
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 lizard rescued from vicious feline

First off how can you say there isn't enough room for the big breeders and us small timers? Look at it this way there are 10,000 plus ball pythons imported every year for the pet trade that are bought by the general public. Yes some of those ch babies don't make it, but the majority do. Those people start to see the more drastic morphs (albino, pied, lucy, black) and begin dreaming of owning one but they know they can't afford one right now. They start saving and in 2 yrs the prices have come down to where they can afford one and make a purchase of a lifetime. Yes I know most people, even people who love snakes would never pay $1k for a snake but tons of people pay $500 everyday. Yes the market right now is totally a breeders market, but it won't be forever and soon won't be for pastel's. I expect to start seeing them in most reptile shops in the next yr or so and general pet shops in probably 2 yrs. The thing is once they hit that $500 mark, alot more people will be buying them. And let's not forget what the end goal is when owning a co-dom morph, it's producing the super form. Super pastel's are still not produced in high enough volume to cover the demand. You also stated that morphs are priced high because of rarity. I have one question for you, why are albino burms priced higher than normal burms? They certainly aren't rare. I see albino burms priced at 250 in pretty much every pet store i go into and people buy them. There are probably 2-3k, if not more albino burms produced yearly, do you think there are that many albino balls or heck even pastel's on a yearly basis, I doubt it. You also said birthing records have nothing to do with honesty and everything to do with ego. We all know who the top dog's are, and they all come on here gladly to show off their new designer morphs so that would get them the ego trip you say they need. when the breeders don't let us know what's going on with their projects the market does get flooded surprisingly quick. The best example of this is the spider. Nobody knew exactly how many spiders NERD was working with and when they started releasing them to the public, then everyone was saying holy crap they are everywhere. At least we know one thing, we know how many lessers have been produced by RDR, and we know how many pieds have been produced by PK this year. It all boils down to what a very well known burm breeder said once, there's only 2 ways to make a million in this business, either shell out the huge bucks for something very new or start with 2 million and stop when you only have 1 million left. If you are in it for the money get into realestate, if you are in it for the love of the animal and to make your money back and a little more each year than jump on the train because it's one hella ride!!!! Josh Hutto

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2.1 het pied (RDR, alan bosch x 2)
1.0 het albino (ben siegel)
1.0 het citrus hypo(gulf coast line)
1.6 05 normal bp's
0.6 04 normal bp's
2.5 adult normal bp's (some need breeding to see if norm)
6 white eggs from pastel to norm breeding
4 various corns
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (alan bosch)
1.0 american pit bull terrior
1.1 taco dogs (ankle biters)
1.0 grey cat
1.1 bearded dragons

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrior as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

At least with pastels and mojave's the going price is based on free market and the understanding that there are a lot being produced. I think they would be much less likely to take a big sudden drop than a morph where the current price is held up by a small number of breeders who are keeping their production numbers under wraps. The pinstripes and the like might have more upside potential but they also have more risk.

I think the BRs are great - it gives you alot of insight into what the breeder is working on and the quality of the lines they work with. The industry sets the market based on supply and demand - irregardless of how many snakes you have to sell - people generally sell at the market price - unless you are RDR, PK, NERD or the like then you set whatever price you like (LOL). And if you price low you'll be sure to get some cheerful reminders from the Ball Python Pricing Patrol of possible repercusions for undercutting (LOL) .

The point is there is a general market price every year and if you don't go and panic and drop your prices just because your snakes haven't sold in a week then the market will hold. Fact is those snakes only become more valuable the longer you hold onto them and the closer they become to breeding weight!

If you don't want to spend $4K on a spider - then don't wait a couple of years until they are at your price level if they get there. In the mean time - Joe Schmo just picked up two and will be raking it in with spiders and bumble bees next year.

Just some stuff to think on!
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Tosha

"One of these days i am going to wake up..look around...and realize my place looks more like "Ace Venturas"s than my own." Coldthumb

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul "JP"
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 lizard rescued from vicious feline

Which single breeder produced 100 spiders this year?

If I produce 1 spider instead of 100 spiders does that give me the right to charge more?

BR pages are awesome. It allows the 'litte guys' to see what the big breeders are doing. The animals demand the high prices because there is high demand....basic economics Most breeders have PRIDE in what they produce. If I produced great animals, I would definately want to display them.

If you want to say breeders are stupid for having birthing record pages.....are they also stupid because they help new breeders get started by telling how to properly breed and care for ball pythons? After all....the people that they sell to and help out will be their competition in the future. That would just be silly....any GOOD honest breeder that I have talked to in this business is always willing to help out These guys work hard to produce animal then ask the market rate and you want to fuss because they like to show what they produced.

This business is all about honesty. Be honest and you will be trusted and liked in the ball python community.

You need to think of something better to complain about

You must not have been around too long in this business. Thats just not how things work. Just because you dont buy anything doesnt matter one bit cause there is someone behind you in line that will pay the money.

Youre not going to flood the market either. As the price drops the new prices bring in more people that couldnt afford the snake before.

Plus if youre in it just to make the money you wont be here long anyway.

I'd own Pastels & Spiders if they were $50, and I do admit I'd like to be profitable at this venture someday. But it's the snakes- their beauty & their personality that got me started. They're living art. The day will never come when I look at any of them less due to their market value.

The list of what I like grows (as does my collection) and it naturally falls into place that some will cost more than others. As long as I can care for my collection & produce outstanding offspring, I believe I'll profit from the enjoyment of owning, sharing that enjoyment with others & also have a bit of money in the pocket too.

It's all good, really-
NorthernRegius