Reptile & Amphibian Forums

SACRAMENTO BEE (California) 18 July 05
Joshua Tree, Calif. (AP): Rangers are stepping up their hunt for reptile and plant poachers in Joshua Tree National Park.
Thieves are collecting snakes, tortoises and lizards - "anything that moves" - as well as desert plants, ranger Jeff Ohlfs said. One man was caught with 23 lizards stuffed in a fanny pack and cereal boxes.
"That's illegal. It's flat-out stealing," Ohlfs said. Removing anything from the park, even wildflowers and rocks, is illegal and can bring fines. Ohlfs said he's found some people selling Joshua Tree rocks on e-Bay.
But reptile poachers are the most organized, trading information on the Internet to locate reptile hot spots in the national park.
"There are people making a living in the underground reptile trade," Ohlfs said. "They've collected so well outside the park that they're having to come into the park now."
Poachers are caught nightly during certain peak periods. Ohlfs didn't know how many poachers have been caught so far this year, but the poaching season is about to peak and rangers are beefing up patrols.
A major reptile expo this summer in Reno, Nev., is expected to bring thousands of snake and lizard enthusiasts to the region. Ohlfs said it's a perfect opportunity to make a side trip to Joshua Tree National Park and stock up on reptiles.
Ohlfs wouldn't provide details about the reptile show or park ranger preparations.

I think we need our own version of the "minuteman project".

Aren't you a biologist? If so, you should know that comments such as:

"But reptile poachers are the most organized, trading information on the Internet to locate reptile hot spots in the national park.
"There are people making a living in the underground reptile trade," Ohlfs said. "They've collected so well outside the park that they're having to come into the park now."

That's bad science if I've ever seen it; totally unsubstantiated. Even if those claims were qualified as anecdotal, I still have a hard time buying into the pitch. I don't visit geology or botany websites, but I imagine that they share locality info as well.
Does poaching happen in Joshua Tree NP, most certainly, but how significant is it?? Is it significant enough to give all herp enthuiasts a bad name? Yeah, we should police ourselves, but in my eyes, that article paints most herpers as bad apples. That last paragraph really summed it up. The comments in the article by a wildlife enforcement officer, propagated on this forum by a biologist? (=scientist), really points out the bane of the law abiding majority in the herp community.
It's too bad that the article was released into a populace the size of Sacramento.
Shane

>>SACRAMENTO BEE (California) 18 July 05
>>Joshua Tree, Calif. (AP): Rangers are stepping up their hunt for reptile and plant poachers in Joshua Tree National Park.
>>Thieves are collecting snakes, tortoises and lizards - "anything that moves" - as well as desert plants, ranger Jeff Ohlfs said. One man was caught with 23 lizards stuffed in a fanny pack and cereal boxes.
>>"That's illegal. It's flat-out stealing," Ohlfs said. Removing anything from the park, even wildflowers and rocks, is illegal and can bring fines. Ohlfs said he's found some people selling Joshua Tree rocks on e-Bay.
>>But reptile poachers are the most organized, trading information on the Internet to locate reptile hot spots in the national park.
>>"There are people making a living in the underground reptile trade," Ohlfs said. "They've collected so well outside the park that they're having to come into the park now."
>>Poachers are caught nightly during certain peak periods. Ohlfs didn't know how many poachers have been caught so far this year, but the poaching season is about to peak and rangers are beefing up patrols.
>>A major reptile expo this summer in Reno, Nev., is expected to bring thousands of snake and lizard enthusiasts to the region. Ohlfs said it's a perfect opportunity to make a side trip to Joshua Tree National Park and stock up on reptiles.
>>Ohlfs wouldn't provide details about the reptile show or park ranger preparations.
>>
>>I think we need our own version of the "minuteman project".

totally mis-informed or out right one sided maybe false agenda similar to the famous OPERATION ROCK CUT of TEXAS here. While it MAY be true. If you all remember either out right lies or scare tactics used to annoy > ? inform > ? cause more negative attitudes > to the general public of herpers wrong doing of a several million dollar figure of poaching the federal park systems particular on reptiles of Big Bend National Park of Texas. When it went to several magazine publications including either Newsweek or Time, it was one of the most wrong informative articles that i have ever read concerning the above. But wait, it was rehashed some years later again after every indictment was either fought or thrown out ( and there were a LOT of indictments at one time ). The problem with this so called STING and aftermath and the very bias opinion/assumptions ( not even scientific or facts ) , it was and is virtually impossible to have done what the wildlife or parks and wildlife agencies reported because of shear numbers of poachers and or poaching numbers of animals. So is this another one of those type of scenarios ?
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

Sounds like you have been reading up on me.... The press releases that follow any reptile bust tend to be a "bit over inflated" to put it nicely. And in my past experiance they can get a little over excited and drag people into a mess that do not need to be there. In my case they went way outside the scope of the investigation to poacing in Big Bend on Operation Rock Cut. I do not think they caught more than one person in the park. But the did put a couple of pet stores out of business and filed charges against dozens of collectors. All of which were dismissed if challanged in court, they did not even get a court date. Just quitely walked away from.

...excellent points Shane...but mebbe Lat-man meant to organize in order to be vigilent to government enforcement excesses!!!!

While I havent had the personal pleasure...enough of my friends have had "elevated risk stop proceedures" used on them by NPS officers, that there certainly appear to be regular abuses of basic rights: to travel, to observe & photograph wildlife, & finally to possess a loaded firearm for self defense [I was in the enforcement business for 20 years & I didnt prowl around remote areas at night w/o a heavy assemblage of weaponry....I still dont, tho I rarely pack my Shorty-15 nowadys...].

Joshua Tree, Big Bend & Organ-Pipe all have been the origins to a number of these complaints.

We have a citizens obligation to function within the law, we also have an obligation to say whoa ....time out... when govt agents overstep their color of authority.

I checked 100's of herp & other hunters over the years...compliance generally exceeded 90-95%. Yes theres usually probable cause for a stop & polite license & wildlife inspection, & with that is the plain view doctrine...
Consent searches will usually be requested, of reptile hunters (but not rabbit hunters!). I always admired those with the civic guts to say no. I always concluded these folks may have something to hide...but for others it was because they respected the rivers of blood our soldiers have shed thru the ages to protect these basic liberties.
In todaze terror paranoid world....Id allow an officer requesting a consent search to an overview of my vehicles contents, no WMD's or bodies in the trunk, but for a detailed search of compartments/packs/overnight bags/etc...I would demand the officer obtain a court issued search warrant.

The paradigm that LE needs to see reptile hunters,... but unfortunately in many, perhaps most cases....CHOOSES not to, is one of generally law abiding citizens engaged in another whacky but lawful activity...not aha; another "perp" from an organized poaching syndicate...until EVIDENCE indicates otherwise.

The article should be retained, it unfortunately speaks volumes about the NPS enforcement organizational culture.

Beers, John Gunn

And have less of LE's help. They start with some good intentions but it seems like when they have a judgement call to make in the field they are more likely to jump to the wrong judgement.

hate reptile lookers, hunters, photographers guts in west Texas because they believed that story of ROCK cut of the 80ties. I myself got in heated argument even though I was nice about it with a business owner last year in Terlingua because she was convinced that all of us was poachers and therefore making all of that money on poached animals of the area. I tried to explain the REAL agenda of the sting operation and that the reptile are just not worth as much as the agency and article purveyed and that there is that permit/license deal that makes us legal to do outside of park boundaries that also just being down there helps the economy of the surrounding area plus her freaking business. NOPE ! She threaten to call wildlife on us even having shown her what the permit permitted us to do. I don't know why i even waisted my time on her other than trying to turn her wrong conviction of her views on us because of the wrong information that was given out in the articles. OH and I just remembered the most damaging article on this was the magazine Texas Monthly.
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

1 - make the fines for wildlife crimes big enough to scare the
crap out of poachers. Now it's just like a traffic ticket.

2- W'm's and park police need to be as smart as the poachers ,
not just smart. Being able to i.d any species at any time to prevent wrongful siezure. That never happens....right?

3- Somehow.........facts need to be relayed to the media in a correct and uninflated manner. Most stories are filled with untold mistakes, wrong numbers and flat out misinformation .
Most stories are actually very boring and newspapers would have no need for them without the inflated numbers and fangs and massive collections this or dangerous reptiles that......

4- If it were the massive problem described, and that important,
there would be a separate task force dedicated to the correct procedures,investigation, apprehension and correct sentencing of poachers.
Let the wm's manage the land.
Otherwise, a 500.00 fine for poaching a 1,000 black market gila monster will always be laughed at.

as I think LB on here can tell, on the true facts of the texas sting, several of us tried to put true facts in and was non-acceptable because of sensationalism ? compared to the non-true facts. In the article it only used the word " OTHER " parks maybe one time and focused on Big Bend if I remember. Although the article also mentioned bear gall bladders and eagle feathers among other poached items and maybe of other parks. But this article was trumped up as the tried convictions was. It WAS truly a operation of set-ups and such and of little consequences of the term of " reason of conspiracy to commit fraud " or better known as " enticement ( there is another word for this but I'm getting old and can't remember the term )to commit ........oh , I remember " entrapment by reasonable means " and I think that's why most everybody got of these plus other various reasons. Entrapment can be construed several ways and can even be looked upon as a infringement on the law enforcement side as well sometimes as a DEA agent that I know told me one time. Most entrapment cases are or can be fought as these were and not even make it to court or a judge. BUT as some can tell you even if the entrapment case is there, you will spend some monies on fighting it ! NOW I'm not saying that this sting operation was without merit ( some may say that though ) as I don't know the exact reason it was put forth other than maybe it was only thoughts or assumptions and or very little actually caught individuals doing some poaching. AND there is the rumors that with these poachers may of led a to the making of the larger thing that related to the supposedly bigger poaching scale. Why ? Maybe they made a plea bargain to save their butts with false info as last years sting on a convicted poacher of the Cal. state. Again I don't know the real facts on that deal either but from reading of when it went down........AND to keep my butt out of trouble, my post are my opinions and assumptions and only mine and not to sway anybody one way or the other because basically I still want to go " looking " for herps and photographing them without trouble ! LOL !
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

Curious where you get that $500 fine figure? Maybe for a first offense or if it was low because they pled guilty and the case against them was weak.
Curious what the maximun fine for a box full of gilas would be for a repeat offender when the case against them was strong and no deals had to be made, as would likely be the case with a person who actually makes a living selling poached animals as so many of these articles like to paint us.

There is of course a problem with a minority of herpers doing this stuff. But I find it hard to believe that you could make a living at it. I also think some of the poaching stats they have include people who are really just there to take pictures. After all they say that is the poachers favorite excuse.

Bottom line if somebody has a any native animal vegitable or mineral in a protected area they should be hung out to dry. And we should take steps to monitor our peers in the hobby and make sure that we all behave. Right now they will never trust us to regulate ourselves like the falconry people do. We just need to work on that trust.

All the other crap and false statements aside, I would like to focus on...
"A major reptile expo this summer in Reno, Nev., is expected to bring thousands of snake and lizard enthusiasts to the region. Ohlfs said it's a perfect opportunity to make a side trip to Joshua Tree National Park and stock up on reptiles. "

For one, that show was cancelled awhile ago due to lack of interest in both vendors and participants, so no thousands of enthusiasts. And two, I hardly consider over 600 miles away a "side trip". I'm surprised they didn't mention IRBA. I can already see them all lined up in their undercover vehicles following all the thousands of enthusiasts after they leave the show to go poaching. What a joke.