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Is this a cottonmouth?

pgg Aug 15, 2005 11:27 AM

I live in coastal North Carolina - swampland, mostly. I know there are copperheads and cottonmouths around here.

This morning we found this guy in my garage, and not wanting to take any chances with my dogs or kids, I killed it with a shovel. I didn't measure it before getting rid of it, but I'd estimate it was maybe 2-3 feet long.

I saw a snake that looked a lot like this behind my house a couple months ago, but it looked like it was about 4-5 feet long.

Photos here: http://www.geocities.com/p_g_g_2004/snake.html

Mostly uniformly brown scales on the back, triangular head, red-orange-yellow scales on its belly.

Replies (46)

thurockk Aug 15, 2005 11:42 AM

Non venomous watersnake, Looks like Nerodia fasciata to me.
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roomates:
1.0.0 anery corn "zepplin"
1.0.0 normal corn "little bub"
0.0.1 red milk "stumpy"
0.1.0 eastern garter "auspicious"
0.0.1 broad-banded watersnake "washington"

Snake_Master Aug 15, 2005 05:16 PM

WHAT THE >>>> Did you kill that??? that is a banded water snake...

Greg Longhurst Aug 15, 2005 05:31 PM

As you already know, the snake was not a cottonmouth. The attached site has as much info as you should need to know what a cottonmouth looks like, both from its appearance and its behavior. Just click on the cottonmouth on the site.

~~Greg~~
Florida's Venomous Snakes

Hotshot Aug 15, 2005 06:39 PM

to take a look at and put in your "favorites" on your browser.
The snake in question was a banded water snake. Non-venomous, but they will bite if handled, and will leave a nasty bite.
Take a look at the web site and educate yourself on what differentiates cottonmouths from common water snakes. They can be hard for someone as yourself to distinquish, but once you see a cottonmouth in the flesh, you will remember what it looks like from that point on.
And just FYI, anything that is advertised as "snake repellant" is just a scam for your money. There is nothing on the market that will keep snakes from entering your property. The policy is to do as you stated; keeping the grass cut, bushes trimmed, boards and tin picked up, and not having brush piles, rock piles etc. No place for them to hide or to attract their food and you should only have the occasional wanderer.
Brian
Snakes of North Carolina

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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Corn snake (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
0.0.1 Great plains rat snake (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

RACERS
1.0 Eastern Yellow Belly racer "Nightcrawler" (MO locale)

KINGS
1.1 California king snake "Bandit and Moonstar" (Coastal phase)
1.0 Prairie king snake "Bishop" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Prairie king snake (KY locale)
0.1 Black king snake "Domino" (KY locale)
1.0 Desert Kingsnake "Gambit" (TX locale)
0.1 Florida Kingsnake "Shard"

MILKS
0.0.1 Eastern/red Milk intergrade "Cable" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Eastern/Red Milk intergrade "Omega Red" (KY locale)

BULLS/GOPHERS/PINES
0.1 Sonoran Gopher "Husk"

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

canidman Aug 15, 2005 06:43 PM

Snakes will continue to live near your house. It would be wise to educate yourself, as has already been stated. If you are so concerned about venomous snakes - and if you refuse to learn - maybe you should think about living somewhere else? There is no good reason that a snake should die due to ignorance.

pgg Aug 15, 2005 07:26 PM

I appreciate the information and the links.

I don't think I'd have had a more horrified welcome if I'd gone to a cat lovers forum, posted a picture of a bloody kitten corpse, and asked "Is this a man-eating tiger? I killed it with a shovel just to be sure."

Just keep in mind that what's obvious to you is not obvious to most people. As previously noted, I do my best to discourage snakes from getting too close to my house. In the 2.5 years I've lived here, this is just the third snake I've seen. One was _definitely_ a copperhead, one was a 4-6' long blackish-brownish snake that left our yard, and one was this water snake in my garage.

If I wasn't interested in learning to tell the difference between poisonous and non-poisonous snakes, I wouldn't be here.

One of the URLs posted showed a cottonmouth and banded watersnake side by side (link repeated below) and I still doubt my ability to tell them apart, especially in a shadowy corner of my garage. Bottom line ... if a snake gets in my house, and I'm not 100% sure it's harmless, it's going to get whacked.

I'm not going to bet the life of my dog, let alone my kids, on my ability to tell the difference between these two snakes:
Bottom left image on this page
Bottom left image on this page

canidman Aug 16, 2005 01:34 AM

Well, lets put it like this. Lets say, for example, your child gets bitten by a venomous species one day when you happen to not be around with your shovel. Now, you can't tell the difference, right? So the snake gets away and when the paramedics ask what species it was, what do you say? It's important to know which species it was in order for proper treatment to be delivered. That should be reason enough to tell the difference between a water snake and a cottonmouth. Or between a copperhead and a milk, or a milk and a coral, etc.

Snake_Master Aug 16, 2005 07:26 AM

yep.. but the kids were not bitten? he should buy some tongs.... at least and a field guide...

HarvestMoon Aug 16, 2005 08:06 PM

Keep in mind that most people who are quick to judge have probably never had to contend with venomous snakes.

From one who has, a few thoughts on what I've learned, suggestions and a bit of general rambling, hopefully some of which you will find useful.

First of all, in response to the suggestion that you acquire tongs and attempt to relocate a potentially venomous snake yourself: I STRONGLY advise against this and I cannot stress this enough. No offense intended here but whoever suggested this has obviously never been bitten by a venomous snake... While a cottonmouth bite wont kill, it will cause untold realms of pain and possibly problems that may well last for years. Many of the people I've spoken with who were experienced in handling venomous snakes admitted to having made a mistake at some point which resulted in them being bitten. Definitely NOT something someone inexperienced should attempt. If you are certain that the snake is not of a venomous species, then by all means, feel free to relocate it if you choose to, or preferably, leave it to go its own way.

Killing venomous snakes with shovels is extremely dangerous and should not be attempted. If you are close enough to a venomous snake to kill it with a shovel, you are probably within striking range. Most venomous snake bites occur while trying to kill a snake or trying pick one up.

If you encounter a snake you think may be venomous, quietly remove children and animals from the area and, if at all possible, leave the snake to head off on his own. If the snake has taken up residence in your garage, etc., again, remove children and animals from the area then call your local Police department or Animal Control and ask them to send someone out to remove it for you.

Some venomous snake species are territorial, particularly during breeding season, cottonmouths among them. If they're in it, its THEIR territory. If you're in it, you're intruding. Never harass the snake, either by trying to kill it or in an attempt to chase it away as chances are the opposite will occur and you have forced a confrontation. When a snake is encountered, the best bet is always to back away quietly and leave the area.

Never, ever, stick your hand anywhere you cant see. Not under porches, not under missing planks in outbuilding floors, hollow tree trunks, the list is endless. Firmly educate children on this lesson in particular until it becomes second nature as this is how kids are often bitten.

Educating your children is your best option to protecting them. Something to consider... You wrote: "Bottom line ... if a snake gets in my house, and I'm not 100% sure it's harmless, it's going to get whacked." I can relate to this more that you will ever know BUT if "whacked" means by the sharp end of a shovel, its asking for trouble. Remember, kids learn by example... Suppose one day your child decides to kill a snake themselves and that snake actually is a cottonmouth... The old rule of thump: "If you're close enough to kill it with a shovel, you're close enough to be bitten." Something to think about.

In your favor: Venomous snakes need their venom in order to eat. Therefore, they expend their venom very sparingly. Venomous snake bites on humans or animals may be either 'dry bites' (a bite with no envenomation) or bites with only a partial envenomation. Venomous snakes (at least those native to the US) are highly unlikely to 'unload' on a defensive bite.

Do keep in mind though, the more agitated a snake is, the more venom it may expend. This is just my opinion of course but why risk it unnecessarily?

The key to co-inhabitation is to avoid confrontations whenever and wherever possible. The yard should be kept mowed at all times. Never allow it to become over grown. Remove any brush piles, woodpiles, overgrowth and anything else that may offer hiding spots for snakes. (You probably already know this.)

If encounters become frequent, you may want to consider erecting snake fences. There are several theories regarding snake fencing, some work better than others. Some may be more effective in certain regions than in others. My snake fences were constructed of wood planks with two strands of hotwire, one at the top and another on the outside and set at least a few inches into the ground. The idea is the snake attempts to climb over, touches the hotwire then heads back in the other direction. Optimal height, materials and so forth, for an effective snake fence varies from one person's opinion to another's. Personally, I consider it an investment, I opted for a minimum of 24". 3ft along the border of the property where the snakes occurred most frequently. If you try snake fences, whatever method you decide on, the fence charger must be of a 'weedburner' verity, especially if your property borders land that is overgrown.

Lastly: continue your quest for education of the snakes in your area. Learn as much as you can about them, which I know you are doing. Don't be put off by the unrealistic opinions of a few, its easy to criticize when its someone else...
I am quite fond of snakes myself... Obviously! =] I hold no grudge toward cottonmouths or any other though having been bitten. It was my mistake. I prefer a live and let live policy, but, should a confrontation be unavoidable, I'll do what needs doing. (Not with a shovel! )

Hopefully some of this well help, if there is anything else I can add, let me know.

Snake_Master Aug 16, 2005 08:42 PM

Actually i am 15 and i have messed with venomous since i can remember catching canebrake rattlers, edb rattlers, copperheads and eastern cottonmouts.. and I think tongs is better then killing a snake lol.. there are large tongs.. i mean just to pick it up to put in somthing like a garbage can.... there is no use in calling anyone like the animal control...

HarvestMoon Aug 16, 2005 10:38 PM

Snake master, this is your opinion of course and I respect it. You must be a very exceptional young man and I respect that as well. I say this in good humor but you suffer from what I call "Youthful Invincibility Syndrome" =] As did I at that age! (I outgrew it I suppose.)

In any case, I have done the same on occasion but at the same time, for safety's sake, I cannot in good conscience recommend that someone else, with no experience, attempt it. We must remember also that this person has children (small ones, I gather) to consider. As I said before, children learn by example. The manner in which he/she handles encounters will be impressed upon the children. The situation requires safe, sane and humane solutions.

You cannot expect others your age to be as snake savvy as you are, they wont be, nor will most adults.

phflame Aug 16, 2005 08:58 PM

thanks SO MUCH for taking the time to post it. You might want to consider copying it into some kind of file, so you can copy/paste it in the future.
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phflame

Snake_Master Aug 16, 2005 09:17 PM

your funny huh?

HarvestMoon Aug 16, 2005 11:18 PM

Anytime! =]

Having been on the other side of the (snake) fence so to speak, I guess I have a different perspective than most. Ironically, my fondness for snakes came about while trying to figure out how to get those blasted cottonmouths out of my yard, out of my livingroom, etc.! LOL The key to understanding is education (preferably not being beaten over the head with it!)

Greg Longhurst Aug 17, 2005 04:50 AM

Harvest Moon: That was indeed an excellent response. I disagree with one thing you said, however. Cottonmouths have in fact been responsible for human fatalities and have a potent enough venom that if not properly treated within a reasonable time, could prove lethal in the future. Their venom is more potent than that of their close relatives the copperheads, which, by the way, have also, although not as often, proven lethal to humans.

~~Greg~~
Florida's Venomous Snakes

HarvestMoon Aug 17, 2005 12:48 PM

Good point! For the sake of the discussion its best that is clarified. I shall rephrase: "With prompt medical attention, a cottonmouth/moccison bite is highly unlikely to kill a human."

I misread an earlier post. I was thinking the man was actually having problems with venomous snakes. I purposely did not mention the killing of a harmless snake as he had already been thoroughly chastised and I saw no point in adding to it.

The point I had hoped to get across is that this notion of killing every snake he came across, just to be sure, was actually putting himself in the best possible position for being bitten and potentially setting the stage for his children to be bitten. If fear of venomous snakes is truly the issue, then by PROPERLY treating all snakes as potentially venomous, he would be better protecting his family and, as a result, no more harmless snakes would die in the mix.

This predisposition people have for "killing it before it has a chance to bite anyone" is the number one reason people get bitten. Leave them alone and keep your hands out of dark places (which is how I was bitten in case anyone was wondering) and most problems can be avoided. I once found myself standing with a fair sized cottonmouth about 10-12 inches away from my foot, easily within the snake's striking range. I stood there quietly for a couple of minutes, the snake went his way and I went mine. Not meaning to preach to the quire here but more in hopes that the guy comes back to the board.

FloridaHogs Aug 15, 2005 09:40 PM

Stuff happens, I love snakes, and can pretty much tell them apart on site when it comes to the venemous ones, but I would have trouble telling those 2 apart in the pics. If my kids were anywhere near..and I was uncertain..so sorry snake, but I have my priorities. As others have said, education is best for the snake, but sometimes a parent just reacts.

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Jenea

1:3 Eastern Hognose
0:0:1 Florida Redbelly
0:1 Gulf Coast Box Turtle
1:0 Red-eared Slider
2:0 Cats
1:1 Kids
1:0 Spouse

Snake_Master Aug 15, 2005 09:57 PM

Yes, but there are other ways.. why not buying some snake tongs? can be purchased from 15 to up... way on up.. and can be safly transported in the woods... or maybe u have a container and bring him somewhere off from the road.. or somthing.. my point is... just try to identify before killing .. in Nc.. the most common venomous snake is the copperhead and canebrake.. i have found tons in one day... u should be able to recognize then easly.. cottonmouths are less abundant.. and will usally gape its white mouth and will stand its ground..while a water snake will usually run.... and eastern dimaond back rattler and pymys and coral snakes... red touching yellow kill a fellow... u should know that lol....well that is all i want to say.. its just i get a lil upset when i see a beatiful specimen of a banded water snake all choped up.....if u love snakes like us you would understand lol...

rearfang Aug 16, 2005 07:31 AM

In almost every case, one step backwards is all the protection you need.

I am so sick of hearing about how people's children need to be defended when the above rule is all thats required. Get a damn book and learn what is-and what is not safe. It aint that hard. Thousands of harmless snakes are killed each year by people too dumb or prejudiced to learn about what's outside their door.

As for safety...

Its very simple- If you dont get in striking range you can't be bitten.

What is so hard about remembering that?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

chrish Aug 16, 2005 10:25 AM

When someone posts a mangled snake on here that they found "out at the lake" or "along the highway" I'm all in favor of these "pile on the redneck" type responses.

But in this case, a parent found an unidentified snake in their garage! Out of a sense of protection of their children they killed the snake (please don't tell me your children are 15 and 18 however!). I am a realist, therefore I have no problem with a parent dispatching an animal in their house to protect their young children. I don't like it, but I don't blame the parent.

Rather than just chalking it up as another kill, pgg posted here hoping to learn more. I salute pgg for taking the time to find out whether it was venomous or not. Too many others simply take the "only good snake is a dead snake" stance. They don't care what kind of snake it was.

If we had been able to point out some obvious differences between the two species in question, pgg might not have had to kill another watersnake. We couldn't because watersnakes and Cottonmouths are difficult to tell apart for the inexperienced person.

Save your abuse for the rednecks. They post here now and then because they enjoy the attention it brings them.
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Chris Harrison
Does anyone else here think that these scrolling signature lines are stupid?

rearfang Aug 16, 2005 11:44 AM

I've spent almost 40 years hearing the same stupid story.

Instead of coddling these people for not using their brain I call it like I see it. NO ONE WAS IN DANGER.

All he had to do was pick up a book-look for it in his computer or call animal control. if it slithered away while he was looking-no foul.

Killing is just being too lazy to do the right thing.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Rick Gordon Aug 16, 2005 01:19 PM

I know I posted a reply this once, looks like it got pulled, I don't think it out of line. Anyway I will try to reiterate it with a nicer tone. When you kill a harmless snake you open the territory for venomous species to move in. Also, in my opinion there is no more reason to kill a venomous snake then there is to kill a wolf, bear, or cougar. All are potentially dangerous predators. That deserve our respect and our understanding not the business end of our shovels. I have a infant daughter, and if I lived in a place where venomous snakes were abundant, then she wouldn't be allowed to play unattended until she was old enough to under the danger and how to avoid it. You make think that your attitude is reasonable and in the best interest of your family, but it's also the reason most of us don't have wolfs, bears, cougars and cotton mouths in our back yards, and in my opinion its a real shame.

pgg Aug 16, 2005 02:21 PM

rearfang wrote:
: I've spent almost 40 years hearing the same stupid story.

If you hear it so often, perhaps it's because you have unrealistic expectations regarding people who aren't as interested in snakes as you are.

: Instead of coddling these people for not using their brain
: I call it like I see it. NO ONE WAS IN DANGER.

At that moment, you're right - no one was in immediate danger.

: All he had to do was pick up a book-look for it in his
: computer or call animal control.

Even after some time searching Google and reading every link posted here, I still doubt my ability to tell the difference between a cottonmouth and a water snake. The fact that it was in a dark corner, half concealed by a Shop-Vac - and not posing in the brightly lit outdoors - isn't going to make it any easier.

Finally, leaving an unidentified snake in my garage while I go surf the net or get a book gives it an opportunity to find another spot to hide. Leaving it alone was not an option. We didn't find it on a path in a park ... it slithered into our house.

Calling animal control never occurred to me, but it's a good idea for next time. Now that you mention it, I wish I had done it.

: if it slithered away while he was looking-no foul.

Unless it's poisonous, finds a darker corner of my garage, and then later bites my 4 year old daughter when she goes to get a can of soup.

: Killing is just being too lazy to do the right thing.

Next time we'll call animal control.

gila7150 Aug 16, 2005 03:14 PM

Next time you might consider safely relocating the snake by using a household push broom to gently push it into a trash can on it's side.
That way you're removing any potential danger to your children and setting a good example at the same time.

Check out this link and scroll through the 4 photos....

You might also want to pick up a cheap field guide of the snakes in your area so you'll be able to make a quick ID next time.
Chris

Snake removal link

gila7150 Aug 16, 2005 03:18 PM

Actually this link is a little better....
snake removal link

rearfang Aug 16, 2005 03:55 PM

You say you cannot tell the difference between a cottonmouth and a harmless snake even looking at pictures?

With all due respect, the differences are obvious-even to an ametuer.

First-Look at the eyes. Every harmless water snake has round pupils (like we have) Cottonmouth Moccasin,s dont(on a harmless snake you can see those eyes easily from a safe distance).

Second-Moccasins have a very noticeable black mask (band) over their eyes which harmless snakes dont have.

Third: the pattern on a Moccasin is very distinctive in a juvenile-similar to a copperhead which it is closely related to. Any snake that has saddles or bands that narrow as they go down the snake's side is harmless (unless they have a rattle). Adult Moc's tend to turn almost black.

Fourth. The head shape is very distinctive. Though water snakes can spread their hed, when they do it looks flat. moccasins have a heavy looking wedge shaped head.

Finally...Moccasins are much more heavy in body than your water snakes.

As far as expectations go...People frequently disappoint me in their failure to understand the simplest things in their lives. It is just common sense to learn about the animals you live next to if you are that close to nature.

I grew up on the Everglades. The first book I owned was a picture ID book of snakes I got when I was five.

As far as your daughter goes...i am not insenstive to your arguement. However, Your four year old daughter stands a much higher chance of being bitten by a brown recluse spider or a black widow when she goes for that soup. Life has dangers and you can't cover them all. Good idea to keep a flashlight there.

Cottonmouths are not likely to make a home of your garage. A rat snake will and of course it's harmless.

In closing, Let me say that I grew up in an area rich in snakes that is now almost devoid of them in most areas because people kill first an ask questions later.

It is good that you will call animal control next time. But if you really want to protect your family, research so that next time you will have an idea of what can come into your backyard or garage. Your reward will be a greater peace of mind.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

canidman Aug 16, 2005 05:42 PM

The original poster has been very patient with our attack. I suppose it's a mix of myth and a lil' reality to fear snakes, and the first thing to come to mind is to kill them off. Venomous snakes pose a danger when harassed and cornered. Otherwise, they will usually retreat. YES, there are snakes that will hold their ground, but usually all they want to do is escape.

Every problem we face with wild animals, is - whether directly or indirectly - our fault. We drain their swamps, cut down their forests, and build houses on their homes. We don't really think about it until there's a wild animal on our doorstep, wondering what the hell happened. It is their land whether we like it or not. The oh so powerful human has all the knowledge in the world, right? But then why so many refuse to learn about the creatures that we share the earth with? All of us here have a love for reptiles, amphibians, and the rest of the worlds wildlife. At the same time, most of take the responsibility to educate others who have not had the pleasure of a lifetime of being with these creatures.

In our own "special" way, what we truly want is to educate this gentleman. We get angry because sometimes it seems hopeless. But obviously we have persuaded one man to become more educated about snakes. And thats a pretty damn good job from my viewpoint.

- and that ends my rant for today !

chrish Aug 16, 2005 07:33 PM

I agree that the pgg has been very patient with our attacks.

I see this forum as a place that snake lovers and those who don't love or don't know snakes can come and post questions to be answered by people with more experience. I know, for example, that Frank (rearfang) has been giving great info on this forum for years.

However, if the "public at large" comes to this forum and sees the way people lambasted pgg, they are less likely to come here to be educated. They are more likely to take the stance that those snake guys are a bunch of jerks and not post here. The result is that we miss an opportunity to educated someone about this issue, which ought to be our goal.

If we are seen as understanding and helpful, word of mouth gets around that this is a place to come for information. The result could be that less snakes have to die if we just exercise a little tolerance.

I agree it is a shame that this harmless snake had to die at the end of a shovel. But I think it would become even a larger tragedy if this forum gained a bad reputation because we lost sight of the service we are providing and tried to use it as some sort of bully pulpit.

In this case, the snake was already dead. What was to be gained by name calling that couldn't have been accomplished by amicably answer pgg's questions (as some of you did)?
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Chris Harrison
Does anyone else here think that these scrolling signature lines are stupid?

rearfang Aug 16, 2005 08:58 PM

In spirit I can agree with you Chris. However, The point needed to be made that it is not ok to go around killing harmless animals because "your protecting your children."
The reason is not valid and our accepting it as an excuse is justifying it.

Like many here, I give the gift of many years of experience, in particular (in my case) years of of public education. In the above case, it was a foolish and dangerous thing for him to do. As we all know, too many people get envenomated from trying to kill snakes.

That is why when people started to coddle him for his act I took the other course. I'm abrasive, but the message had to be delivered that it was not ok to do what he did. Then we can explain the safe and smart way to handle it.

I would rather hurt feelings than not speak and see someone get hurt because nobody said what need to be said.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

kisatchie Aug 16, 2005 11:57 PM

So how do you guys feel about the feeding pics on the kingsnake forum depicting getula feeding on other snakes? I think enough grief has been given to this guy who just asked a question. I don't particularly like seeing a greensnake or rattler being scarffed down by a king either, even if they do eat them in the wild, but it seems to be a big thrill on the aforementioned forum.
JMHO,
Jim

rearfang Aug 17, 2005 06:59 AM

As far as feeding snakes to other snakes. If that is a necessary part of their natural diet I don't have a problem with it. if it is for "the thrill" I think video games are more productive in that department.

As to bashing...I think the point was made.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

jrreptil Aug 16, 2005 05:33 PM

If you can't keep you kids and pets safe fron a snake you know where is.
HOW ARE YOU GOING TO KEEP THEM SAFE FROM ONE YOU DON'T KNOW IS THERE.

pgg Aug 16, 2005 05:56 PM

jrreptil wrote:
: If you can't keep you kids and pets safe fron a snake you
: know where is. HOW ARE YOU GOING TO KEEP THEM SAFE FROM
: ONE YOU DON'T KNOW IS THERE.

The fact that I can't eliminate every conceivable danger to my kids, from snakes to gum disease, doesn't mean I should ignore a known or suspected danger - whatever it is.

Anyway, at the end of the day, I know a little more about snakes because of the collective enthusiasm/passion/fanaticism of this forum. And next time I'll call animal control if I'm not sure exactly what has moved into my home.

Again, thanks to all for the information.

Snake_Master Aug 16, 2005 07:54 PM

Thats great that you came to us kingsnake users though.. dont stop posting here cause ppl get mad.. we just hate to see beautiful creatures dead... The best thing to do when you see a venomous snake is to catch and release ur self.. they will just kill them at the animal control probally but not sure on that...

rearfang Aug 17, 2005 07:43 AM

The term "Fanatic" is perhaps a bit over used. Nature is fighting a loosing battle with man and in many places it has passed the stage where a simple "Oops! Dear me, I killed the wrong snake..." Cuts it.

I'm Caustic and I admit it. But keep in mind that I have seen or heard of thousands of snakes that have been killed for dumb reasons through the years.

One that stands out was a fool who was stabbing a brown water snake (of respectable size)in an isolated part of a state park (where it was illegal to kill in the first place). He was screaming at me when I blocked his attack yelling, "It's a Moccasin! I'm gonna cut it's head off!"

The fool had a knife with a two inch blade against a seven foot snake. Doesn't take a genius to figure the result if that Had been a Moc.

I drove near Bell Florida and saw a car go off the road to run over a 6' patternless Southern Pine. A mile later he missed a silver EDB that was coiled in the middle of the road.

I saw a fool on the news who got bit by an EDB as he claimed he was protecting his dog...then the story changed to his children...They made him a Hero. Funny thing, the man's story didn't quite jell with the fact that he was bit on the arm.

Fanatic no....I just no longer have patience for the lame excuse that "Children are in danger." Kids are allways in danger, thats why we teach them about the world, so they know what can harm them.

As I pointed out above, there are many things that you cannot see before they get you. it is not being a Fanatic to insist on thinking first rather than the khee jerk reaction with the shovel...

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

canidman Aug 17, 2005 04:12 PM

Thank you for those examples. In my years of herping in CT, I have seen a lot of foolish behaviour. Most people don't realize there is a rattlesnake (C.horridus) native to this state, yet they insist that all water snakes are venomous moccasins. They will argue to the death if you tell them otherwise. Then there are those fisherman that kill snapping turtles because "they eat all the gamefish and are dangerous to swimmers", yet they leave rusty fish hooks on the shore.

After nearly 15 years of herping, it does get tiresome to hear the same old stories & excuses. You have to wonder how people like this live day to day.

- Mike

Scott Eipper Aug 20, 2005 10:53 PM

Snake Master,

Sorry that is some of the worst advice I am yet to read. That is not only irresponsible but DANGEROUS. I cannot fathom to understand how you can reccomend someone with no experience with snakes to go out and potenially start removing Agkistrodon.

What you must understand that when non snake people are around snakes they are nervous. Things that are simple to some are very difficult/almost impossible to others.

SO what if animal control kills the snake (about to be set upon by the masses).
What infomation do you have that supports translocation of snakes actually benefits the snakes themselves. The literature that i have here is that in 2 studies (habitat utilisation and competition in resident vs. released snakes (species were Notechis scutatus and Crotalus horridus)) was that in the Tiger Snakes the ones that survived often returned to were they were originally caught (its a legal requirement that snakes must be released within 5 kms of the capture site to maintain genetic purity), were usually suffering from problems associated with stress and subsquently thought to be dieing slowly. In the case with the timbers it was along the lines of a 96% mortality rate in moved snakes.

Maybe these snakes (that may or may not be euthanised by animal control) could be put into museum collections or possibly the private trade. Rather than suffering a slow and painful death.

Regards,
Scott Eipper

rearfang Aug 21, 2005 02:52 PM

Definitly valid concerns Scott. However, Relocating a snake (by your own words) presents a small chance of survival.

As to the alternative....Killed is dead. Not the best choice for the snake.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Scott Eipper Aug 23, 2005 06:02 AM

Frank,

Dead snake lodged in a museum/ zoological collection, in a park ranger's educational hut. Still represents value. The dead snake in the bush does'nt (to people)and usually dies a prolonged death.

The snakes removed and euthanised in Australia usually are given a necropsy (gut contents, reproductive biology (clutch sizes etc and parasitic loads).

Regards,
Scott Eipper

rearfang Aug 23, 2005 11:16 AM

Scott. A snake that dies in the wilderness contributes it's corpse to the food chain. It also stands the chance of spreading it's DNA if it breeds before it dies. better use than being in a bottle.

You remind me of a guy I know who was with the Milwakee Zoo. He caught a Parrot Snake that was piebald. He bottled this unique snake because he said he couldn't release it. His claim was he saved the DNA.

I said to him, "For what...some notes in a journal? A blood sample and photos would work for that. A dead snake cannot pass it's DNA on, so you really saved nothing except noting what might have been if you had left it alone in the first place-or bred it...

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Scott Eipper Aug 24, 2005 06:41 AM

Frank,

"A dead snake cannot pass it's DNA on, so you really saved nothing except noting what might have been if you had left it alone in the first place-or bred it..."

The animals in question can't be "left alone" they are in someones house. They are not legally able to be traded into captivity (I know... thats weird law..you can kill it but not keep it?).

If the blood has been stored correctly it may be possible to resurrect a clone now if not certainly very soon as I am sure you are aware.

I thought the "food chain" was a given..of course when something dies other things benefit. I however have the snake's welfare (quality of life over quantity) issues at heart.

As for the values of getting good baseline data...I will leave that on its merits.

Thinking we made need to agree to disagree.

Regards,
Scott Eipper

rearfang Aug 24, 2005 07:15 AM

Considering the example I gave above was placed in formaldhyde (like so many lab specimens) there was no DNA to clone with.

As to quality of life, My philosophy is, a chance at life is allways better than death. I would think dying free is better than euthanasia.

I have relocated many snakes in my day (working in animal rescue) I found that some of the snakes I released I would find alive and well in the same area ( should point out that they were recognised by scars or pattern anomalies they bore).

There was one though that was funny. When i was curatoor at Lion Country, we had a yellow rat with a half crushed face that kept trying to get into our ratsnake (screened) enclosure to mate with the females.

I personally placed him up to two miles away and he kept coming back.

And yes, I do agree to disagree.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

pythonis Aug 29, 2005 07:01 PM

so im reading through this long line of posts and i figured id put my own opinion in. mind you, this is only my opinion and should not be confused with my own day to day activities. i am an animal lover but i also firmly believe in Darwinism (survival of the fittest). yes it is very wise to be knowledgeable about animals but one cant whip out a snake book when staring at a hissing unidentified snake thats about to strike them or their children. i very seriously doubt that any parent or spouse in this room is going to say "just go ahead and let the possibly venomous snake bite you because its better for the snake to live than it is for you". im not in anyway condoning the killing of any animal im just saying that sometimes youre only given 2 options....kill or be killed. lets say that it wasnt a snake but a vicious dog or maybe even a tiger/large cat that was mauling your very own sibling or spouse. would you honestly tell everyone not to hurt the poor thing? i doubt it and if anyone in here would put their own spouse or child in danger to avoid having an animal get hurt is what society likes to refer to as "tree hugger" or "bleeding heart liberal". also, like the gentleman said before, "those that criticize people's behavior around venomous snakes have probably never had to deal with one". if you do encounter a snake that seems hostile then yes i would advise that you just calmly step back and leave it alone. however, what if youre backed up between the snake and a wall (for instance) and its been positively id'd as a hot? you gonna let it bite you? like i said ealier this is just my opinion but i believe that sometimes a person has the right to defend themselves against what they believe to be a threat to their own safety. please dont assume that i go out and look for snakes to kill because i dont. im not saying that its ok to kill them either. i believe that everyone that said "become educated" is correct but if you ever feel that a snake's existence is more important than a family member or your own life then its time to sit down and have a long talk with your family and let them know that you dont care about them anymore. this is my opinion and i wish that you please see it as that and not try to label me as an evil person. i read everyone's opinions and respect them so please be considerate enough to the same for me.
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0.0.1 Colombian Redtail Boa
1.1.1 Sumatran Blood Pythons
1.0 Black Blood Python
1.0 Dumeril's Boa
0.1 Coastal Carpet Python
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python

Scott Eipper Sep 01, 2005 12:57 AM

Pythonis,

Reasonable post?....as for not being around venomous snakes....thats my herpetological bread and butter so to speak. That being said I think your post is misplaced. Frank and myself now got on to the legalities/ethics surrounding translocation, somewhat removed from the original topic.

As I have said to hundreds of non snake people about snakes in houses/yards (coming from a Melbourne (Australian) perspective where 99% of removals are large highly venomous elapids)if you a worried call a snake catcher, did you know that most bites occur when someone is either trying to kill or catch the snake?!

If they left it to someone who knew what they where doing then much less harm done for all parties concerned.

As for your tiger/lion analogy....not to many of us here would need to worry about that where as snakes in yards does happen quite usually.

Scott Eipper

pythonis Sep 01, 2005 10:13 AM

hey thats your opinion and i respect it. i was just stating that through all of the posts i read, all i got from people is that its okay for the human to die or get hurt as long as the animal lives. i love animals of all types but even so i have my priorities and i am at the top of the list.
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0.0.1 Colombian Redtail Boa
1.1.1 Sumatran Blood Pythons
1.0 Black Blood Python
1.0 Dumeril's Boa
0.1 Coastal Carpet Python
0.1 Jungle Carpet Python

beastie Sep 09, 2005 04:49 PM

if that's what you got out of it, then you should reread it.

the original poster stated he found the snake in his garage then killed it, not that he found the snake directly threatening his child. he did not say that the child was anywhere near the snake. he said that he didn't want a snake in a place his child may go.

slightly different than your example.

bc

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