Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Earlier this year, I put a pair of tharys together that produced last year, the female up and killed the male. Ok that happens. Then I put in another male(last one I owned) and she killed it(all sorts of cuss words) So the horrible person I am, and I am by doing this, I placed her in with a male black and white king and simply said, here kill this one. Well as it turned out, they got along fine and bred as if they were the same species.

But, the female was in with two different male tharys, as least for a very short time.

Now the problem or question, So far, 4 have hatched and two more have pipped. Of the four that hatched, two appear to be pure tharys and two appear to be hybrids. Notice I use the word appears. The two that pipped, appear to be one hybrid and one more pure tharyi. So in six eggs, its 3 hybrids and 3 that appear to be normal tharyi. Whats the deal. please understand, I will treat the tharyi appearring ones as crosses. I will keep them and only breed them back to the hybrids.

It my past experience a long long time ago in a galaxcy far far away, when I allowed crosses, all the offspring appearred to be crosses. Of course some more like one type or the other, but all had at least some telltale sign they were crosses.

Also, in the past in a galaxcy far, you get the rest, I never had two males father the same females clutch. I blame that on my methods, I always left the male in for days before backing with another male. I have heard of people that had without question had two males father one clutch. They would allow several males to breed, one right after the other.

So with this clutch, I have experienced two new things, after decades of doing this.

Has any of you experienced this, two males fertilizing one clutch? and a not for this forum question of, have any done crosses that appearred only like one of the adults? Please understand, that is without back breeding.

While I am not pro or anti crosses, or hybrids, I did not expect to recieve such new questions to answer?

Also the pic is very poor and both hybrids have brown or reddest centers in the black bands. Thanks FR

I had my hypo everglades female bred by my hypo male and by a WC "female" (Oops never probed her). The clutch was only six eggs and I got 4 hypos and 2 hets. No real chance that the wc was het and I saw the hypo male breed the female a few differant times. So I had 2 differant males fertilize one clutch. Also when I posted on this Shannon Brown was mentioned to me as someone else who has seen this and documented the occurance as well. The WC "Female" might get test breed next year just to make sure he doesn't carry hypo.
Later Jason

Frank,

I think a recent (last 30 days?) edition of herp digest had an item on this phenomenon in a non-colubrid. Unfortunately my trashed email is automatically deleted after 7-10 days so I can't refer back to it. Maybe someone else still has a copy of that edition.

Terry

It is not irregular for hybrid stock to show intermediate characteristics from either species flock or a predomination of traits from either phenotype.

My question to you FR is why do you have snakes killing each other? I thought your snakes had meaningful relationships. Please explain! Thanks, Phil

First off, I have explained a thousand times, Do I have to write a disclaimer with every post, I have not kept snakes in many years. Recently I was givin a bunch by some local(loco) friends. So I bred them. Most were discards and gifts. I did buy some hognose and two calkings.

Also, at I am not a weak kneed save all animals in the world kind of person. I have no problem feeding a snake to another snake, if you think about it, its what kingsnakes do. I believe a quick death is far better then a prolonged torturious death(kept in poor conditions) About thirty years ago, I got grief for feeding an alterna(weren't many around then) to a calking, then I got grief for feeding a woma to a whitethroated monitor. In all cases, the snakes were defective, and so was it in this case. But I do not have a problem is someone raises snakes to feed to other snakes. I also do not think its bad to lose snakes while testing methods of keeping, that is in order to improve captive conditions for those living. And no, I do not shoot any animals, but I would if I had too.

Most of my comments are based on keeping and breeding kings and kingsnake field work, from the midsixties to the early ninties. In that time, I had many world first breedings of many types and many of the morphs bred now are products of my stock.

At this time I am not set up to keep snakes, my cages are far to complex for such simple animals.

Here is a pic of a pair of lacies, I bred these, these were a hemispere first. I am not at five generations and still no one in this hemispere is or has bred them. This cage is 20ft by 20ft by 10ft high.

This group of cages is indoor/outdoor cages, we have lots of these as well as lots of all outdoors and lots of all indoor cages. I also have a deticated facility. About 2000sqft of building and many times that outdoors.

In these cages we provide up,down, in and out, and many many choices. You know like kingsnakes only on a very large scale.

Also, before during and still, I consider myself a field herper. I do not copy other people to develop captive techiques, I use nature for that. Thats kinda how come my results are a tiny bit different. I hope your serious and not just trying to be a trouble maker. If you remember, I do not want or need you to believe anything I say, in fact, you shouldn't believe what people say. I only hope to allow you to think and investigate further. If you do not want that, good on you. FR

FR, I am completely serious about my observations with hybridized animals and their resulting progeny.

My comments on your female snake killing your males was a little "tongue in cheek" and I meant that in a humorous way based on our previous conversations on your assertions of pair bonding.

I do agree with you that it is okay to feed snakes to snakes. However, I do draw the line. I feed only culls to other snakes not potential breeders.

Impressive pics of the lace monitors. Beautiful set ups!

And from one field herper to another, a pic of a horridus we found recently in deep forest.

Best regards, Phil

Mississippi Canebrake....much nicer than those yankee timbers.

Nice looking canebrake Matt! Here's a look at a gravid female we found at a rook last month. Dang I like seeing those snakes. Always makes for a good day in the field. Phil

FL horridus....
:Mark

Nice Mark! Osceola? Phil

Are you the guy who has been selling the lace monitors at Daytona for the last couple years. If not maybe there is someone else breeding those in the US.
As far as your female killing your males that IS a husbandry problem even if you don't think so. You should never lose a snake to another in your care and for all the snake killing snake scenes I have witnessed I have never seen one that was quick or painless.

I love talking snakes and the different things we see in our own personal care, but don't be a hypocrite and talk about husbandry and how poorly everyone else keeps their animals for two months, and then tell us how you lost 2 males to a female and qualify it by saying they died better than others lived in drawers. They died because you did not pay attention during the breeding. The female killed one and then you let her kill a second. How can you be that careless or callous??? You speak of the snakes as disposable because others gave them to you and that turns my stomach.
Later Jason

I am not a hypocrite, I never said, You should do what I, heck I never even mentioned that I was any good at this. That is only in your mind.

I never said, I am perfect, in fact, I mentioned what I did was wrong(bad). That you think I do not do things that are wrong, is insane. I am human, and do wrong things on an hourly basis. Is it a hypocrite to mention "other" ways of doing or thinking?????? no you wanker its not.

That you think I am perfect is, again your problem and out of my control. No ones perfect, not even priest or god. If he was perfect, he would not let humans destroy the world. Or let babies die.

I really don't think that you "think" I am perfect, I do think, you are only looking to throw stones, because in some odd way, you think I offended you and others by offering other choices of keeping, and other ways of thinking about snakes, and that my friend hurts your little brain. So you get mad at me. You should get mad at yourselfs.

Again, that is not my problem. Its yours. The reason I think that is, if my posts and information was non-sense, you/all of you, would not bother to attack and feel so threatened. You would simply ignore me, like so many others here. But you don't ignore me, Why??????? Again, that is something you need to ask yourself. I don't need to know or care to know that answer, its your problem.

An last, its only a fool who comes to conclusions without information. I mentioned I have fed snakes to other animals, I also mentioned that there was always something wrong with them. Both you and Phil, forget to read important parts. You two also forget to investigate and ask what what wrong with that snake other then it killed two males. Killing two males is not normal, was there something to cause this? No sir, your two just jump to conclusions out of pure ignorance. Good on you.

If you would have asked, which you didn't, I would have told you that the two female tharyi, were givin to me(I did mention that) what I did not feel the need to explain was, these animals were in very sad shape with a varity of problems, one had old harden eggs that have been stuck in her for, who knows how long. That one is the mother of the first clutch. Hey thats kinda cool. The other was full of flaggelates and totally messed up. The original male, looked like a string with a knot of it. I cannot believe he actually fathered young, he did. He was also missing a hemipene. And there is more. My task, was to allow offspring for my friends and I to work with. But my friend, you failed ask anything. Again good on you, FR

Again Frank you offer a excuse that you would not accept from anyone else. You recieve animals in poor conditions that in fact sound like WC from your description and instead of giving them a year off you breed them. Ok
Fact 1- Healthy, well feed, monitored snakes will not kill their breeding partners. Does this happen yes but it shouldn't. Is this a reason to jump on somebody if it does happen. No mistakes happen.
The problem is it happened twice to the guy who "invented snake keeping" and who has "breed most of the stock in captivity today" Are these exact quotes no but they are in the right area of your usual pretentious quotes.

I never said you where perfect and in fact would like to talk snake husbandry with you but every time that starts and somebody goes a differant way than you, you turn into a grade school finger pointer. You ask us not to make assumptions by making them as your defense. I already told you there is a way to get your point accross without angering people but you ignored me. You jump on people and tell them what they are doing is wrong and then say how innocent you where when they defend themselves. This is just a taste of your own medicine.

I infact am probably closer than most to keeping things how you discuss. Of course not exactly but I do think in a slight way as you say you do. I have no real problem with you besides the fact that after you make a statement that is broad and open ended you jump on people for either misunderstanding you or having a differant opinion than you. You could try to clarify what you said but you don't. Go back and read the post you have made that have not been deleted and read them not as yours but as somebody elses and see what you think of yourself. As I said before try a little not to be a jerk and it will go along way.I don't care if you have good things to say or not. The way you post will always draw comments no matter who you are or what you are really saying. So its not that people are offended by what you say but instead by how you say it. You just think you are bending everyones minds here with your points. For some maybe you are but you really have not said that much outside the real mainstream. Try a little tact and lets see what we can figure out as a group for the betterment of our charges.
Later Jason

I said in a previous post,I had many world first breedings of many types and many of the morphs bred now are products of my stock.

Then you misread, mistake, misunderstand or twist to mean, you said "invented snake keeping" and who has "breed most of the stock in captivity today I have to ask, when does many, mean most. Those are two different things, I did produce many, not not nearly most. I never said I invented anything. Except drawer cages, hahahahahahaha.

So Please consider, the word consider. I often use this word, one meaning and my intended meaning is, to think about in some depth. If you would learn to read, you would have noticed that word. I always say to consider, the reason is, I could careless what you actually do. All I have to offer is something to consider. So with that said. Do not take anything I say as meaningful in any way, only something to consider, now go away. FR

I guess with all that reading skill you have that I don't you missed the following line where I said "are these exact quotes no but they are in the area of your usual pretentous crap"

The points of what I said which you avoid again by attacking me instead of saying something useful where

1) You let two snakes die because of your husbandry and lazyness.

2) While you have things worth saying your attitude and poor wit cause most of it to be lost. If you don't care if it is lost why post it in the first place???

3)I don't want you to go anywhere (and I am not leaving, sorry I "won't just go away" and in fact just wish you weren't such a abrassive jerk who likes to see what he can stir up. You are in fact in the center of all the hostillity lately on this forum. Its sad really, for all of us.
Later over and over again,
Jason

How did you get two snakes, it was only one. guezz you make up all your own info to fit your outlook, good on ya. Life is good that way I bet, FR

He was referring to the two male thayeri that were in succession, killed by the female. (in your original post)
-----
0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

Oh you caught that too huh. LOL
Thank You I thought I was alone in my observations.
Thanks Jason

The two males and the female. If you want everything to be about right and wrong, your simply just as wrong as I was. We were both off by one. So darn what do we do, were both wrong.

Heck, Its very possible I have killed many many more over the last 50 some odd years. I guess to be accurate and out of context, we should count them. So now its 3 X where X= the last fifty years of dead snakes. Hummmmmm wait, I have also ran over a few, so its now, 3 X Y where Y=road kills. Oh no, what about where I gave poor advice and that caused the death of some snakes, surely that has happened. Hmmmmmmmm Wait a minute, my mistakes may have caused some eggs to not hatch. And what about the folks who tried to copy me and failed, surely I am responsible for that. So dang, YOU and limited are surely WAY wrong. Your much much wronger then I, as I know what i did. You two know, "nothing" FR

.

Check this out, Here I fed our kangaroo, actually a wallaby, to a croc monitor. Then the other one I fed to a Lace monitor. They loved them.

The kids were tired of them, so whats a boy to do?

I've got a bunch more fun things if you would like to see. Cheers FR

P.S. get what???????

>>The two males and the female. If you want everything to be about right and wrong, your simply just as wrong as I was. We were both off by one. So darn what do we do, were both wrong.

FR, don't you actually read posts? The thing that irritates me about you, is since you have a fair amount of experience and bring up valid points, you could be a remarkable asset to this forum. But by spending so much time typing insulting and sarcastic rants, you act more like a plague.

>> Heck, Its very possible I have killed many many more over the last 50 some odd years. I guess to be accurate and out of context, we should count them. So now its 3 X where X= the last fifty years of dead snakes. Hummmmmm wait, I have also ran over a few, so its now, 3 X Y where Y=road kills. Oh no, what about where I gave poor advice and that caused the death of some snakes, surely that has happened. Hmmmmmmmm Wait a minute, my mistakes may have caused some eggs to not hatch. And what about the folks who tried to copy me and failed, surely I am responsible for that. So dang, YOU and limited are surely WAY wrong. Your much much wronger then I, as I know what i did. You two know, "nothing" FR
-----
0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

this whole thing is an exercise in studity, who cares how many I kill, I don't why should you? I don't care what you do, one way or another. See what I mean. FR

It is obvious that you don't care about your donated snakes by the fact that you breed them when by your own admission they where thin and parasite loaded. The fact that one male was killed by the female was not a problem for me. It would indicate to anyone who pays attention to their animals that the female needs to be watched and perhabs feed more since as you said she was thin. The fact that mister "pay attention to your animals" ignored the situation and basically killed another male does bother me. The same way some jerk swerves to hit a snake or tells me how he chopped one in half. With your experience you should have known better and likely did but you just didn't care. That is the problem. I really didn't mind it that much until you start defending yourself with stupid remarks. Oh and because you took martial arts you like to fight. Thats even stupider. I qualified for the USA National Team for Tae Kwon Doe by training 6 days a week 2 times a day and not once did I feel the need to fight outside the school I attended. You see I knew and still know what I am capable of and feel no need to prove it to myself or anyone else. Why because I know how good I am. You seem to be still wondering if you are good. WHY????????
Later Jason

I would have to think that the person that asks questions has the responsibility to supply the facts. I guess I must be "ignorant" since I am not a mind reader lol!

It seems to me that you have a bit of a persecution complex FR. I thought I made it clear in my post that my comment was tongue in cheek. That means it was intended in a light hearted way! Did you not read that part? I have the impression that just because we sometimes disagree on certain topics you view me as an antagonist. This is not the case at all! I enjoy your posts whether I agree with them or not. Sorry, but all of us are not going to blindly accept every theory you throw out there. Some of us have been around too long for that. Its okay for us to disagree.

I was only joking in a friendly way. No need to take everything I say so serious! Your responses are going to make people feel you are grumpy. I have never met you but despite our differences I can tell you are someone I like. I like hard headed stubborn guys like myself haha!

Seriously, all the best to you! Phil

You have taken a few jabs here and there, I will tell you how it take it. I could careless, really. Your jabs are only misguided anger at yourself. I already understand what I say. Also, consider, I do not expect you to understand anything. Really, how could you. It may have taken me a decade to learn some little ting thing, and you think that can be explained in a few paragraphs? Heck no, it can't. As I have said and grow very tired of saying, I can only hope to allow you to think, you know the word I use, to consider, I repeat again for your amusement. Consider means, To think about in some depth.

That many of you feel the need to believe or not believe is not my problem. its yours. Whether your successful or not is also not my problem. This side taking thing is so very silly and totally meaningless.

Surely you understand, I am not going to write a book here to help you understand something. I will offer a start, the rest is totally up to you. Its not my responsibility to even talk to you, muchless go on endlessly. Then consider in your frustration, you take jabs at me.

My pappy once told me. Don't kick a gifthorse in the mouth, which in this case means, if someone has some possible information that may help you. You should not take jabs at them.

Now consider, remember the difintion, My other love as I grew up was fighting, I have califlower ears, I boxed, took martial arts, then wrestled thru highschool and college, as well as AAU(greco and freestyle). With that in mind, I am not above a counter (attack). Thanks FR

Now consider, remember the difintion, My other love as I grew up was fighting, I have califlower ears, I boxed, took martial arts, then wrestled thru highschool and college, as well as AAU(greco and freestyle). With that in mind, I am not above a counter (attack).

So not only were you a pioneer in snake breeding but MMA as well (ie "Mixed Martial Arts" -Ultimate Fighting, Pride,. ect). I took some BJJ and some striking but I am more of a fan of the sport at my age.

I didn't consider myself taking jabs at you. More giving an alternate view. After all, I thought this was a diccussion board. You have been quick to point out what you perceive as deficiencies in myself and my methods. Thats okay with me. Those things don't bother me. I also don't know what you mean by taking sides. I am not siding with anyone and in fact even when disaggreeing with you I have maintained a friendly and respectful tone. I am experiencing none of this frustration of which you speak. I come on here to read a few posts and join in the occasional discussion. I am not here to take sides or make enemies with anyone. Including you. Obviously we are not connecting and perhaps we should leave it at that. Phil

I never said you were not nice, Thats why I continued, which I really should have ended it long ago.

The point is, only you can learn. I have already learned(only on this little subject), Only you can look deeper into what your doing, I am not you. You keep trying to get me to teach you or show you more. Which I will not do over the internet, that I have already explained.

As I said, I can only make you aware, there is/maybe more, only you can go down that road. You once said, frank we are at an impass, that is wrong, you are at an impass. That you must understand.

You came up with lots of excuses, I told you they were excuses. Let me try again, the most restricting element in field work is, OUR OWN EXCUSES. Yes, I have and do make them, HKM has and still makes them. Our job is to get past our OWN restrictions. Its excuses that we vocalize. But they are the walls that contain us. All of us.

You do understand, that your comebacks are in essence calling me a lair, I am not lying. If you would just come out and say that, then the next step is easy, we will just end this conversation. Simply put, I/we said so and so happens, you said, it doesn't/haven't seen it. In reality, end of story. If you want to see it, you have to look. In your case, look differently. To keep coming back at me, is again, reflecting responsibility. Its your responsibility to investigate or not. But don't keep coming back to me.

If we lived near eachother and I grew a strong trust in you, I would show you. But we don't. So all I can do over the internet is make you aware of possibilities, and I have done that, any more is beating a well beaten horse, to more deaths. At this point, we have beaten the horse into several deaths and back. So, lets move on. I hope you find what we discussed or not, its no thing. Specially not to me, or HKM. we already found it, long ago. Good luck, FR

Frank
Is there any way you can get some close up shots of an individual that "appears" to be pure thayeri and one that "appears" to be a hybrid???
I really want to see the heads of each but a full body shot would help me see what I am looking for.
What I am getting at is that all the neonates have a Thayeri-like head shape....
Also...Pics of the deceased males and the breeder female would help as well.
I know you have produced many thayeri in your time and you know what you are looking at...I am just curious to get a better look at them...
Thanks in advance,
John Lassiter

As I said, that was a poor pic. Of course later I will try and get a better pic. But that is no guarantee, as I only have a longlens digital, 10x. And its horrible at closeups but great in the field.

At this point, the hybrids appear to be exactly in the middle, as they should be on the first generation. I believe the excitement comes from back breeding or breeding these to eachother. But all that will be on the hybrid forum. Thanks FR

I have not personally that I know of had two snakes father one clutch but I do recall reading something, I think it was by Bill and Kathy Love where they bred an amel corn male and a snow corn male to a snow corn female and got both amels and snows. I recall the gist of the article was that they had proven parentage was by both males so the amel male must have been for sure not het for anery.

If you would read my question again, I stated that. I also stated that, they required immediate copulation by another male. And I normally did not do that. I did in this case.

From the above responses, It appears that is still rare and not of a normal occurance.

The physical question is, many snakes produce a cloacal plug, a day or so after breeding. I hear no mention of this here.

I was actually hoping to recieve, first person experience, not, I heard of so and so. As I mentioned, I have also heard of so and so. I believe that is the benefit of these forums, you know, hearing first person experience.

The third hybrid has hatched and is still mainly calking in influence, but is the most intermediate so far. Thanks FR

it is that multiple copulations will ensure better fertility.Chris "git r done"

Frank the first response you got was first person experience
Later Jason