Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Nice huh?

Crossed with what???
Albino Ruthveni and Pueblan???
Looks like it to me.......
Candy colored clown king to be precise.
I would call it a hybrid not a thayeri cross....You should know better!!! Call it a Pueblan X Ruthveni X Thayeri cross..Don't single out Thayeri and mislead anyone....
Nice eye candy though.
John Lassiter

It's thayeri X nelsoni. Hybrid and Cross are the same thing. Obviously it's not a pure thayeri. It's not a CCK. This is third generation TxN. We're calling them Tiger Kings.

Don't care to see any more pics of your hybrids either! We want quality here and those are damaged goods.

Mike

I think breeding triangulum to mexicana is a hybrid....
A cross would be breeding Mexmex to Thayeri...SAME SUB.
Then there is an intergrade....For example Holbrooki and Splendida.
Like I said nice eye candy, but not really for the Mexicana subforum.
Next time call it a Thayeri/Nelsoni cross...Then it would be represented a little closer to the truth.
Also....Thank God they do not look anything like a pure Thayeri and they are distinguishable (at least by most) as Hybrids! Heaven forbid they get in the wrong hands and we see some more of those misrepresented snakes on the classifieds that have appeared too many times for me............
Thanks,
John Lassiter

Amen my brother... I am with ya 100% on that one.

Mike

John, I stand corrected. I think you are right as far as cross being the correct term for sub-species and hybrid being different species.
But then again I have an open mind and I am always willing to learn, unlike some of the others on this forum.
My intent was to show how the thayeri gene influences color and pattern in hybrids, nothing more.
Thank you,

Ken

To tell you the truth Ken, I am not a true blue purist per say....
I LIKE crosses and hybrids for novelty purposes only....SOME are outrageously gorgeous......to tell you the truth, again.....LOL

I just think that representation is the key to keep from getting flamed....But as you well know there will always be "purists" out there that say this is wrong and that is not right...

What I say to those people (not you Mike) is that keeping snakes in enclosures is not right, but we do it to enjoy the hobby/business.
People that cross species and subspecies do this purely to enjoy the hobby/business as well.

Ken, sorry.....you were the VERY first person to post a hybrid on this subforum. I always told myself if I was ever going to do a hybrid project it would have to have thayeri in it for variability and color. I would have to keep these lines SEPARATE from my pure lines and be very honest to potential buyers....and the big kicker is....THOSE actual buyers must be as honest as I and not breed such "unpure" lines into pure strains of thayeri and the such......
Just my take on the subject....
BTW,
They are nice looking...I gotta give you that Ken,
John Lassiter

it is still a beautiful snake. Though I agree with John on the hybrid, cross and representation. I can't help but imagine what some of my thayeri collection might look like if it were albinos. I've been tempted many times to buy them myself but have not for one reason or the other. I will still probably add one to my collection just to have as beautiful eye candy.

Ken - nicely done. Love the leonis appearance.

Russ

...to post that stuff in here. Most everyone I know that hangs out in here is a purist and this hybrid/cross business has it's place, which is not the Mexicana forum. If you are attempting to entice potential buyers for this stuff, you are wasting your time here.

I wouldn't have that animal in my facility if you gave it to me along with a $100 bill. I would keep the $100 and give the snake away as a pet to someone I would be absolutely sure wouldn't ever breed snakes.

Regards,

Mike Kochvar

Mark, one, I didn't realize this was a "purist" only forum. I just thought people would like to see how the thayeri gene enhances coloration in hybrid animals. Two, I am not trying to drum up business, that's what I have a website for and a classified account. Third, "I can't believe you have the balls.." remark is un-called for and unprofessional. Also, I didn't realize you were the house chairman for the forum and spoke for "everybody". I have pure thayeri as well but being a professional artist I can't deny the beauty, and vigor of some hybrids.

Regards,
Ken

...to see you, as a professional, to begin stretching my reaction further than it was intended. I am Mike by the way, hello Ken. If you had spent any time here looking around, you would know that hybrids and crosses generally aren't discussed here, and most are interested in discussing pure mexicana which is why they are here. Again I use the word most, as all here are not completely purists so I didn't and wouldnt' refer to this as a purist only forum describing the individuals. Those that are actively involved in hybrid/cross projects discuss and enjoy that segment of their interests with like hobyists, respect that and keep it there out of respect for those who see differently.

The hybrid/cross issue is highly controversial and you can stir up a lot of negative opinions with it in the wrong place. Being a professional, I would think you would know that coming here with it. Being as unprofessional as I am, and will possibly always be when I feel strongly about any issue... I said "I can't believe you have the balls"... assuming you as a professional were fully aware of the situation? If you weren't aware, I appologize for that reaction.

And no... I don't try to act as the moderator or house chairman as you describe it, or the expert, nor will I ever. I just share my experiences and thoughts here like everyone else. Notice I use the word "most". I never implied to be speaking for "everybody".

I won't even respond to the hybrid/cross/beauty/vigor issue, it is time for me to finish feeding my animals and hit the hay. I get up way too early and I would be here all night.

Have a good night by the way...

Mike

I have never been able to "embrace" hybrids and I think they are now taking away from the legitimacy of some of the new mutations showing up (no one would believe you if a pure albino Thayeri hatched out anymore; in fact, I would wonder if someone had crossed what I had with a Ruthvini in the past). However, when you talk to Ken and others about the mechanics of breeding two dissimilar snakes together, they have a great deal of knowledge. They have to pay attention to details most of us just take for granted. It is too bad their knowledge and skills are spent on creating . . . well I'm at a loss for the word I want to use.

...if I may add my thoughts to it to clarify my stance for all here. The actual rub with me that generates the agressive response I made is the fact that these animals from Mexico aren't readily available to us fresh from the wild, and possibly never will be again to a reasonable degree in order to continually replenish pure breed stock. I think about my grandchildren's children, and their grandchildren's children... and what the situation for those generations may be then for those interested in what we are doing. Realistically, I don't think it is too far fetched to imagine a day when the captive population in this country(the only mexicana population we have to enjoy) could be something nearly completely man made, and true mexicana as they are described to us today are no longer available.

Granted, something like this seems a bit extreme, but it is certainly possible. Everyone talks about the issue of labeling them properly when sold which is fine... but... what happens after that? What if the animal changes hands several times, is bred along the way, and the offspring filter out into the hobby unsuspected as a cross or hybrid? We all know it happens and will continue. How long... without constant new blood available... will it really take for captive mexicana to evolve in captivity into one big mystery? So that's the aggravation with me. Far fetched maybe, I agree, but very possible.

On the other hand, to be as honest as I can describe here so as not to be completely misunderstood... as I become more educated and experienced in the hobby my understanding and views have changed a bit and I don't have a single thing against any of us crossing and hybridizing any species or subspecies that are either native to our country, or any other country where fresh wild caught specimens will always be available. I now think and feel the same way as many do about these projects and the animals they produce, I completely agree they can be amazing and very interesting as long as they are represented honestly. I think it is a wonderful thing that someone enjoys their hobby to that degree and experiences a high level of success. Although you may never see me doing it, I will appreciate those who are into that segment of the hobby and their related studies. And, if there is ever any doubt, you can always find fresh wild blood.

It's just the seemingly fragile state of these certain few non-native species we keep that can't be rapidly replenished, that creates my angry concern. Maybe I am too much of a conservationist and preservationist by nature. Maybe I should just not be so concerned. I won't be around if and when it happens... my son won't be either and possibly his children will be gone as well. Hell... our palnet is in such a desperate state of affairs, the damn thing may just implode before mexicana are badly tainted so why should I be so excited.

My concern is very honest.

Mike

I gotta agree that the snake is very striking.

Very nice, how much?
Russ