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This was brought up on the water forum after I suggested feeding from tongs to allow a monitor to get used to its owner. I suggested this as a method for the monitor to associate its keeper with something positive rather then something negative.

I was then approached by an individual with the opposite opinion as mine. He seems to believe it will make them act out at the keeper and bite seeing them as a food source.

I myself found this odd my monitors may see me with tongs in hand and a mouse dangling off it as oh joy here comes food. However they certainly do not act this same way with me without the tongs and mouse in hand.

Anyone else have any thoughts or experiences with this subject feel free to give your opinions.

Take care everyone

i can't say much i brake all the monitor rule. i hand feed all of my monitor.
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I have fed all from bowls until they settle in. Once they settle in, I begin to work with them to get them to eat from tongs. I believe it is a much better method as you mentioned. For one, if you are keeping pairs together it is the easiest way to monitor the amount of food that each gets. You also do not have to worry about a sloth of a male eating all the food from the female. It also, in my dealings helps them to associate the tongs as where the food is and can be taken from. Mine will follow the tongs around the enclosure rather than my hand. It takes the assocaition from hand to tongs when it comes to food. Again, I believe that it is the best way to monitor the food intake of each animal.

i have been hand feeding my monitor for thr two years that i have had them and the have never look at my hands as food
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I have seen a clearly different responce when I present tongs/ vs no tongs, and dish vs. no dish. Although I am ALWAYS on guard when dealing with the ones that have the ability to main me. Hahaha
I have no doubt that if they could find a way to take me down, they would. "Are you more of a threat to me, than I am to you?" I can see the wheeles spinning in those little heads of theirs! lol
I speculate the my monitors make a clear distinction between when I am mucking about in their enclosures with the intent to feed, and when Im in there cleaning. I offer food on tongs, AND on plates, with varying consistancy, depending on how much time I have. You can see their eyes light up regardless if I approach with a plate or the tongs in hand. The Pavlovian equivalant to the dog drooling/ bell ringing responce! lol

Hahaha... I dont think I would have a hand.
I use almost exclusively F/T, so perhaps my critters are drawn more to the warm meaty hand then a limp, long dead rodent if they had the chance to make thqat decision?
Im not sure, but I wouldnt wanna gamble on that one.

I totally agree with you, I mean more then totally, hahahahahahaha.

I think monitors know exactly what a mouse is and what tongs are, and surely what your hand is.

I do not care how you feed them, I would not move my hand quickly in front of a hungry monitor. I know they react to movement close up and use keen sight at distance.

Monitors react totally differently from live food to dead food. For instance, dead food like chopped up mice or prepared foods, fed from a bowl normally expresses calm slow careful feeding. When feeding live active foods, monitors are fast and quick to kill. Wounded or slow moving food is somewhere in the middle.

Large monitors get very lazy(not really the right term) they understand that even large adult mice cannot hurt them or get away so often they simple swallow them alive, that is until the mouse bites them. In that case, the keeper(at least me) falls over laughing. As you will see a quick spit out and kill.

If I offer wild prey, like wood rats, they kill them seven times dead. With an intent thats very scary. Same with cottontails, only worse. Thanks FR

As I expected, you completely skewed my original point about hand-feeding. You seem quite insecure about this issue.

As you may recall, I gave a few examples of my rhino iguana, arg B&W tegu, etc who I hand-fed when I was young. These lizards eventually began to "associate," for lack of a better word, my hand with food. So, even when they would see my hand come across the top of the cage, they would be lunging at it with mouths open wide. I was bitten several times just putting my gloved hand in the cage. When I would hold them, they would twist around to try and bite my hand--not out of aggression--but based on their "logic" that food must be somewhere on it or in it. Bert Langerwerf was fully aware of this issue, and he personally recommended that I feed my lizards at night, when they were asleep. This way, they would never put this connection together.

It is my opinion that, saying a monitor could never put two-and-two together (that your hand usually contains food) is selling monitor intelligence short. On the flip side of the coin, I think it may be pushing it a bit to say they can always tell the difference between a hand and food. That I disagree with, because they rely on scent for so much. I think they are far less visual than we believe.

No offence to anyone, this has just been my experience, and I will never hand-feed again. Not my cup of tea, but to each his own. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion, so let's not get to bent out of shape over this. Not everyone has to agree.
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Here it is in your own words. How am I insecure? It doesn't bother me to post this on here to discuss it. Does it bother you? I was already discussing it with you. I just figured I may as well let others read it too not everyone visits the water monitor section and this topic is more general speaking of all monitors.

"I strongly disagree with anyone who says you should feed your monitor with tongs, etc. The worst--WORST--thing you can do is to allow the monitor to associate your hand/appendage with food. I have seen this happen many times. Put food in the dish at night or when the monitor can't see you."

It's cool you disagree but forcing the issue is a bit sily is it not? We are all entitled to our opinions. I happen to fall back on my experience and I have had no troubles feeding from tongs. My monitros do not associate my hands with food. However if I get the feeder bucket out, tongs out, and walk around they all pirk up. If they then see me with tongs in hand and mouse hanging off the end they are ready to eat and then I would not go sticking my hands in there face. Now does that mean they think of my hand as food? I think not cause without the feeder bucket, tongs food etc. I can reach in with no problems. Unless of course it is just a grumpy monitor to begin with. But again that has nothing to do with it thinking my hand is food.

"If you don't know the danger of allowing your monitor to associate your hand with food, you really have no business owning one. If we're being honest, you sound quite foolish to me. But, you're right--you're entitled to be wrong."

I didn't realize their is a wrong or right way to feed. I never said your way is wrong. To be wrong would have to not work. A monitor will certainly eat from a bowl left in the cage whether it sees you put it in or you hide behind a blanket.

"I used to handle a baby rhino iguana fairly often, and it was quite calm. However, as time passed, it saw my hand put fruit/vegetables into its bowl many times. Eventually, when my hand would approach the top of the cage, it would literally lunge at my hand--mouth wide open. When I managed to pick it up, it would rear it's head back to bite my hand--not out of aggression--out of an inherent desire to eat and eat and eat. I tried washing my hands with different soaps, etc--nothing worked. Call it association, call it whatever you like--that's what happened. Same thing with an Argentine B&W tegu I had--I couldn't even put my hand in the cage. FWIW, I've never experimented with how long it may take for a lizard to "forget" the association (if I had fed him using another more discreet method).

I can think of several more examples. But, regardless of whether or not you think lizard's can associate--they can and will. Like I said--it's not out of aggression--it's logical to them."

So it is logical they know you hand has food in it and brings it to them, but it is not logical for them to know the difference between your hand and food, or food and tongs, or food and a bowl?

If you put food in the bowl do they then eat the bowl too? Or if on a paper plate do they eat the plate? A better example yet how about an empty bowl or plate? Do they bite them thinking it has food in it if no food is present?

I will give them more credit then that and say they can tell the difference between them. I certainly will not change the way I feed my animals. I do not expect you to change your methods. That is not why I posted this. I simply wanted to see what others thought and what they concluded too. This is a discussion board. Maybe you did not want to discuss this and just wanted to be right?

"If you put food in the bowl do they then eat the bowl too? Or if on a paper plate do they eat the plate? A better example yet how about an empty bowl or plate? Do they bite them thinking it has food in it if no food is present?"

A bowl doesnt taste nearly as good as a finger. The one time I have attempted to offer of of my big guys a F/T rodent by hand, he snaked his head around the rodent for my nice, warm hand. Hahaha

24" tongs it is. haha

I can see why Bert would make such reccomendations. Hes got some of the most voracious tegus on earth! Hes use to dealing with the frenzy. lol

It depends on which monitor it is.
I fed Sobek by hand most of her life, shes very careful with my hands, I would never let someone try this with her, her head is huge, she could probably take half of my hand off in one bite. In fact she on occasion leaps at a very scary speed to grab food, in which case her mouth goes around the food, and your fingers, at this time your heart skips a beat, she carefully slides her teeth across your fingers then plucks the mouse or peep away, non the less I dont do this very much anymore, mistakes can happen.
Ive had a finger broken by another albig at 4ft long, Im reminded every time I pick up solid objects, no fun.
I use hemostats, and long tongs feeding monitors and the snake now, except Sobek with large rats.
I mind getting bit more now than I did years ago.

Here is one of my monitors feeding from my gloved hand. She simply took the mouse from my hand without touching my hand. She did charge over to grab the first one but still grabbed the mouse not me. When my hand is placed back with no mouse she simply tongue flicks the area the mouse was at and claws my hand.

I know some of you have done this. But I do not recommed everyone going and trying this. This is only an example.

If this same monitor was hungry I may have had different results. More of a crazed monitor chomping at me to get food. I also have others that are more crazy when eating. However none of this was brought on by feeding from tongs.

I strongly believe they know the difference between tong, hand, and food.

I'm gonna have to agree with JP's line of thought on this one. Monitors learn the difference between tong, hand, and food.

If the only interaction between you and your monitor is your waving hand with food in it then yes the monitor is going to associate your hand with food exclusively. And like JP said, "If this same monitor was hungry I may have had different results"

Mine learn a routine. I have hand fed but I ask them to make the distinction between me and food. Do I present my hand to a monitor I hand feed when the routine has been broken, when a meal has been skipped and the monitor is really hungry? No way.

When dealing with different monitors I think you need to deal in specifics not generalities. They all learn, but if you watch close enough they will also teach you. Some will teach you if you don’t watch close.

This thread is starting to sound like soccer moms convincing themselves that their kids are indeed much more advanced than most people think. I've kept lizards of all types for two decades, and while monitors are smart as far as lizards go, I think the mice they eat are more intelligent animals. Do you think a monitor could consistently figure out mazes, colored lights, etc? Let's be honest about this.

I agree that a monitor may be able to visually distinguish that a hand is not literally the same thing as a mouse, but I will never believe they know your hand is a part of their "master" and that if they bit it, it would cause you pain, and that they do not want to do that. Let's not turn this into massive rationalization.

Feeding monitors by hand is asking for trouble in my opinion. Tongs isn't as bad, but I choose not to use them. But, like I said, not my cup of tea but to each his own. If you like to feed your monitor by holding a mouse between your teeth, go for it.
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I thought we were talking about them associating your hand with food and thats why feeding from tongs was bad. That was after all my original post. I suggested feeding from tongs to build trust with a shy monitor. You said it was wrong cause they will associate hand as food.

Now you say "I agree that a monitor may be able to visually distinguish that a hand is not literally the same thing as a mouse" Sounds like what I was saying if you ask me.

You then say "I will never believe they know your hand is a part of their "master" and that if they bit it, it would cause you pain, and that they do not want to do that. Let's not turn this into massive rationalization." hmmm I simply said they can distinguish hand from food, and food from tongs. I never said they did not want to harm you or would act in such a manner as you describe here. When I said my female did not bite my gloved hand when food wasn't on it. It is simply that it is no longer food so why bite it.

You say "Feeding monitors by hand is asking for trouble in my opinion. Tongs isn't as bad, but I choose not to use them. But, like I said, not my cup of tea but to each his own. If you like to feed your monitor by holding a mouse between your teeth, go for it." Well now who is being silly? Noone ever said they were feeding from their teeth. I started this by feeding from tongs. You strongly said it was wrong to do so. Now it isn't as bad?? Which is it?

Maybe next time instead of saying someone is wrong you should just give your opinion on what you would do. I gave my opinion on what I would do and have done. It has worked time and time again.

Take care

The ability to determine and remember what is food, is fairly basic, not at all like 'finding their way through a maze'.

I don't recall anyone saying that the monitors learn to not cause pain, they learn it isn't food, and not worth the effort.

That being said, monitors are smart enough to know how the bowl got in the cage. So you really aren't saving yourself from any association anyway. Personally I've found snakes and lizards to be very good at forming associations for food, on alot of things not directly associated with food: time of day, order of cages being opened, cage opening after water has been replaced, etc....

Perhaps it's the species you keep, but the only way I can safely do any maintenance in a cage (especially with peachies or argus), is to first show them I have no food. I'm usually ignored after that, except for the beggars, and maybe a tail slap from an argus that felt I got to close.

I don't think monitors are all that smart, but they will learn you are the food source, whether you are putting a bowl in a cage, or dangling a mouse from gloved hands, bare hands, teeth, or dumping a container of crickets in. I'm surprised you could have a couple species and not realize this, perhaps they are all still scared of you.

--Robert

Robert,

The species I mentioned in my examples were from many years ago. I haven't had to endure any food-association problems since, because I make a concerted effort to avoid causing confusion. I do not want my monitors to, as you put it, see me as the food source. I want them to view me as a benign being who has nothing to do with food. That's my goal, but it may not be your's, and that's ok.

If you have never had a problem with this, that's great, but let's not make broad assertions implying that lizards are far too intelligent to ever think a hand may contain food, and therefore is something to bite at. I've seen it many, many times--most notably with adult water monitors, who can be just plain aggressive.
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Are.
Ive seen them chase rodents that couldnt be caught as they were too fast, then set an ambush for the rodent in a location knowing the rodent cannot stand to be in the open and knowing it will go to that spot to hide. These monitors that did this were the type considered by some to be somewhat dumb, albigs. Also consider that in thw ild albigs are known to climb trees and set an ambush in front of a birds nest with the eggs and chicks in it, they know that the parents have to return to the nest, they will kill and eat them first then eat the eggs and chicks.
There are different levels of intelligence and learning capability, as well different species are better at each, but as far as monitors go they are by far extremely intelligent reptiles, and Ive found them to learn faster than mice do, even faster than some rats. I havent used live rodents in a long time but using them demonstrates rather quickly how much smarter they can be and how much faster they can adapt to situations when you use a big enough cage to keep your monitor in.

SHvar,

The day a monitor traverses a complicated maze, walks a tightrope, puts a ball through a hoop, or gets treats by consistently touching a green light as opposed to a red one, is the day I will agree they have intelligence tantamount to that of a white mouse.

But rats? Don't even go there. Rats run circles around monitors as far as intelligence goes. I was reading a short article on rats the other day. It said they had congnition in several categories (temporal, numerical, inference, etc). Anecdotal evidence: In the words of Jack Hanna, "Rats are the closest thing you will find to a dog in a small animal."
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I'll bet you my delinquent monitor can beat up your honor student rat!

Sorry but I'm pro monitor. I don't subscribe to rat fancier magazine.

I hate both mice and rats, but I cannot deny their intelligence. You can say monitors are smarter than rats all you like, but that doesn't make it so. Who cares if rats are smarter? Big deal. I have a feeling I could say, "Monkeys are smarter than monitors" and there would be an uproar in this forum of ideas to the contrary. It's pretty funny IMO.

I'm not a subscriber to Denial Monthly.

I don't have monitors because they're smart, I have them because I have always found them fascinating and prehistoric.
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1.0 melinus
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If you read my posts you'll see that I'm deffinately not in denial, I'm a realist. I will admit that a rat can manuver a maze or respond to a light stimulus where a monitor may not. However, if you listen to your monitor and give it a chance you will see that it can and does learn. I hand feed my Savs but when I go into the cage to clean and show them I have no food with a closed fist they smell and do not attempt to bite. they have learned that when I approach them in one fasion its dinner time and in another fassion it is not.

Unless you beat a monkey repeatedly over the head it should be smarter.
Birds are extremely intelligent animals, but again like all animals that intelligence has to due with how they are adapted to live, if they were more intelligent than a monitor in survival and adaptation they sure wouldnt be on the menu.
As far as adapting to the wild or captivity as well survival in harsh conditions and adapting to survive on what food is available monitors are very intelligent and adaptable, so are rats, but I cant say mice are so well adaptable.
About mazes, any predator thats put in a maze with a reward for making it through would get quickly to the other end and adapt the easiest way to do so.
It has to due with how that intelligence is adapted and used.
Rodents use a trail of urine to tell where theyve been or where to go, they dont memorize the route to well. Drip their own urine in a different path or clean/cover it up and you will get them lost fast in a maze.

Thats one of the most disgusting things ive heard all day. ahahaha

We all sould remember how subjective this really is.

One person may see his monitor as more of a pet animal. Perhaps theyve built a more personal relationship, and maybe this person has brought the animal into their home as part of the family. I would bet that through all of this work, they have come to form completely different type of bond/ level of trust then someone who has an animal that lives in a cage its whole life.
Likewise even with the cage residents, there are many species that have particular behaviours that make them unique. Some are very agressive eaters, some are more secretive.
Then there the animals that dont even fit into the "breed profiles"(many do not). So then we add even more variation to work with.
Finally, we have the keepers interpretation of all of the above monitor "personalities." What one person may label as an "agressive" behaviour, someone else may call "enthusiastic." So, of course we respond to the animal based on our preconcieved ideas about what denotes a particular behaviour.
Im sure monitors are a heck of alot better then most of us, at keying into body language. Subtle nuances that go unseen by the human eye, but not by our lizards. Im sure all these things effect the overall way we interact.