Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Some time ago I purchased a thayeri king and after looking at this pic in hybrid forum. I wonder if any way to tell if pure as mine looks similiar to his.
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=872920,872920

The problem is that there is no sure way to tell. Many natural intergrades exist between mexicana, and many un-natural hybrids and crosses exist on the market. I saw a clutch of thayeri/pyro hybrids the other day that looked like pure thayeri. One day DNA testing may help us sort this all out. The best way to get as "pure" an animal as possible is to select a breeder with an outstanding reputation that can trace their lines back to wild caught mexicana. It has been over 20 years since mexicana have been legally imported to this country, and finding breeeders with pure lines has become more challenging. Many of the folks on this forum can recommend breeders with excellent reputations.

Thanks for the info. I have nothing against hybrids but last reptile show I was at I saw thayeri hybrids for sale(honestly represented as hybrids) that looked like pure to me and the pics in hybrid forum reminded me of that.
Some thayeri hybrids more so than other snakes to me look pure. I bought mine from a breeder and glad I did but must say the hybrids look as pure (some not all).

to suggest that mexicana intergrade in the wild. They have separate ranges and from what we can tell thus far, they do not come in contact with each other. Furthermore, in the not too distant future we will likely see the thayeri, greeri, mex-mex elevated to species level - like alterna and ruthveni; no more mexicana subs.

DV

You would think that I would be disappointed hearing this but for some reason, it is very interesting and exciting news. I would actually be excited to see them separated and gain species level status. After working with all of them and alterna for a few years side by side, I personally see them quite differently with respect to overall behavior alone, subtle... but there definitely is a difference. The differences would possibly go un-noticed by most. Then there are the taxonomy studies showing clearly defined differences and from everything I read that is credible, I would have a hard time believing that any significant intergrade influence actually did exist between the 3 mexicana ssp, considering the topography and their currently described ranges alone. Neat stuff.

Mike

hmmmmmmm, Thanks Dan, I knew that Greeri were a pretty isolated population, but I thought Garstka said that Thayeri and Mex-Mex can intergrade. I tried to start a discussion a few weeks back on the Garstka paper, but no-one was interested in debating it!

Greg

I'm very interested in discussing this. While some zones of demarkation have been established between alterna and thayeri(ie, anticline of arteaga to saltillo), other ranges and fringes are poorly established at best.

You may be 100% correct (or not?) however at this point it's probably at best premature to make that assumption. More work needs to be done in several "key" areas between mex mex & greeri, mex mex & thayeri, greeri & alterna, webbi & greeri, and new undescribed species with their nearest neighbors.

It is important to remember that, as humans, we like to draw lines in the sand and say everything on this side is this, and everything on that side is that. Great, but with clinal variation and geographic isolation even an alpine alterna is different from a Limpia Canyon (so said mtDNA?).

So lets make a pact, no more visiting areas where field work has already been done! Got to hit the new areas inbetween to help fill the gaps.

Best
Joe

>>to suggest that mexicana intergrade in the wild. They have separate ranges and from what we can tell thus far, they do not come in contact with each other. Furthermore, in the not too distant future we will likely see the thayeri, greeri, mex-mex elevated to species level - like alterna and ruthveni; no more mexicana subs.
>>
>>DV

I agree with you 110% Joe.....
I think there are areas of intergration with Mexicana even if some people want to separate all of them into their own species.
Hell...corns breed with ratsnakes in the wild so why not a Thayeri and an alterna???????
Snakes do not read maps!!!
John Lassiter

You're correct Joe - never say never. Anything is possible. There's a lot of unexplored remote habitat down there. But, at this point in time there's no solid evidence of intergrades....it's speculation. I'll believe it when I see it.

DV