Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ok well just a thought here in cali....
is there a such thing as a california king....common banded king........crossed with a california mountain king......zonata..
do these types cross breed .? i dont see why not....does anyone have any pics of this ....wouldit produce a larger lookin mountain king? just thinkin.....thanks

Sort of off-topic, but do you have a hidespot for your snake? What about "burrow-able" (I made that up) substrate? Just wondering.

yes yes and yes.....my snake is fine ...wy do you ask ?and what do you know about my question......??? any help do you have any cal mt kings..?

NO they DO NOT breed together in the wild as thy live in totally differant habitat.

Matt
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www.theselectserpent.com

How do you figure? I caught a common just ten miles from where I caught this Sierra.

I have not heard of that hybrid cross. Can it be done....sure...would like to see a pic if one has one. They have used pyros in numerous other hybrid projects. And have used cal kings in the same hybrid crosses. But as in some hybrid makings, trickery is used to get them to breed..and in some cases no trickery is necessary.

Do they occur together in the wild...you betcha! I will admit that most of the habitat that cal kings use...pyros do not...but here in the Prescott, AZ area there have been both cal kings and Arizona Mt. Kings found within yards of each other. That does not mean that they breed together though in the wild.

Kerby...

Years ago i collected zonata and californiae under the same sheet of tin, but not at the same time.
Being both Lampropeltis they obviously have the capabilty to cross, i don't know if this has been documented in wild populations.
I would think in the wild the zonata would surely end up as snack b/4 the cal would even think about procreating with it.

Well pyros have now been thrown into the mix and the thread falls apart. There are always exceptions to the rule but zonata and getula don't make a habit of living in the same "habitat" which is a specific area a snake (or any animal) desires to live. 10 miles is hardly closely related to a specific habitat. zonata and getula DO NOT hybridize in the wild!

Matt
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www.theselectserpent.com

I'm not talking about pyros, what i'm saying is L.z.multifasciata AND L.g.californiae DO share the same HABITAT. AND as i said b/4, i have collected both under the same sheet of tin but not at the same time.

Mt. kings, mostly ocurr in higher elevations, and calkings at lover elevations, but they do overlap in many many places thru out their range. Thats a fact.

Also, I would believe, that hybrids occur, thought extremely rare. FR

I just crossed a calking to a Tharyi successfully, if by accident. It happened without trickery or incident.

But please understand, you will surely be risking you zonata. Allowing such things comes with a certain amount of risk. Heck, anytime you place two snakes together there is a certain amount of risk.

On my tharyi's second clutch, the original male she bred was in shed, so I placed her with another male, and he ate her. Such is life with kingsnakes. So in this instance, it was 50% chance of extreme failure.

Also, I have fun thinking of a five foot buckskin tharyi, as you do with a five foot zonata. But for some reason, they blend in characteristics. But surely we can dream. FR

There is no proof that a zonata and a getula have ever mated in the wild and if there is please point me to the collected specimen. While I understand that their range over laps at certain thresholds, my point is they normally don't choose the same piece of "habitat" in a given area unless the zonata is looking to get eaten....which I'am sure happens. Finding them under the same piece of tin "but not at the same time" does not prove that they commune together and thus copulate together. What times of the year did you find each individual snake as "habitats" do change with season and the times in which snakes use them. As for your captive hybrids you will never have a 5 ft long buckskin whatever because that is all it is ,is a whatever, it's no longer a thayeri.

Matt
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www.theselectserpent.com

Ofcourse finding two different Lampropeltis at different times under the same tin, does not prove they cross, then again i hav'nt seen any proof that they don't, have you?
AND it's good that you now realize californiae and multifasciata CAN and DO share some of their HABITAT, like the foothills of santa clara, santa cruz and san mateo counties for example.
you obviously have never been snake hunting in california.

The two species do indeed overlap in many areas, so they "do" have the possibility to cross. Similar types have done so in captivity, so the physical possibility is there.

Now consider, humans see only a very very small percentage of any population of any species, including such things are waters and garders. Muchless a subterrain(fossorial) species like zonatas.

Then consider, 9 our of 10(or thereabouts) of all zonata hatchlings perish/consumed/die before adulthood. Then consider, a cross can be even less suitable for survival. Lets say, 1 in 50. The chances of humans seeing one of these would be astronomically small.

The point is, its possible. Not common, not probable, just possible.

Your broad statement of denial. Paints a complete picture of it never occurring. You understand, never, has a far greater chance of being proven wrong, then possible does. Remember, never is a long time and includes many conditions we do not understand. In fact, it includes all conditions, past and future.

Possible includes things we do understand, climate changes, behavioral changes, habitat changes, etc. And things we do not yet understand. No one here is saying that its common.

To add to this fire, two(that I know of) wild caught gophersnake/kingsnake crosses have been brought to the San Diego zoo. Now consider, gophersnakes and kingsnakes live in and amoungst people, lots of people. So the chances of seeing this is much higher, yet only two. Zonatas habitat, is only recently being encroached upon by people. Most of their perfered habitat is not very suitable for housing tracts.

I did indeed view one of these crosses and as expected, was a perfect blend. So yes, its possible, and that was the question.

Now I have to ask, is everything you have not seen, not possible? FR

Well I read the original post again and I don't see any talk of "is it possible" It reads "do they cross?" Unless I'am mistaken I don't believe a wild caught zonata--getula has EVER been found. This leads me in the direction that if it has happened there is no proof. Therefore, at this time, there is no reason to think that it occurs or needs to occur especially in captivity. I'am glad you guys did'nt write our judicial laws where PROOF is not needed to PROVE that something has happened. Also, there is a big differance between specific used habitat and range. And come on guys I don't want to be the bad guy here and I have had fun with this post. My mind uses known evidence to process and maybe that's where I'am differant here but I don't want the thread to be a negative experience. We all have our opinions. Take Care

Matt
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www.theselectserpent.com

And heres why, in your mind and wants and needs there is no need to cross these two species. What happens or happened or is going to happen in nature does not have a stinking thing to do with it. In your case its only used for fabricating an excuse.

You see no need for crossing these two species. That is great, don't do it, don't buy one and surely don't look at pics if it occurs. You see, you don't have to be envolved.

But obviously, in others minds there IS a need to do this. For whatever reason like, curiousity, possibility, color, size and color, bored out of their gord, even thoughts of piles of money etc. Are indeed all reasons for doing so. How good those reasons are vary with the individual and are not for you to judge. Sure there are good and bad reasons, again, your not the judge.

In the old days, there was fear that a cross would escape and take over the world. These days I fear that if one escaped, there would be nothing to take over. As in pines case, whats it going to do? take over a housing tract???????

So understand, your confusion is what is needed for you, and what is needed for others. I am thinking, you are not the one to tell others what is needed for them, nor am I. If its anywhere near legal, then they should have a ball. And so should you, with whats needed for you. You do understand, there are many out there, including AZA, that think you keeping any kind of snake is NOT NEEDED. FR

Sorry your so angry about this. The original thread asked do zonata intergrade with getula. My point was simple.....NO they do not. In my circles the desire to keep sub-species seperate is important and I'am sorry you don't feel the same. The fact remains there is no evidence of the cross occuring in the wild. Take Care

Matt Woodhall
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www.theselectserpent.com

its exactly the response to the post. The key to understanding is, what your saying is important to YOU, and you are not others. So you can do what you want, and by all means should let others do what they want.

About you telling me what I want or think, or if I am mad, is all wrong, and I am not mad at all. Why would I be?

I already understand, theres a place for your approach, and a place for others approach. Even a place for my approach, which is none of the above. You being narrow minded, and thinking only your approach is right and true, is your problem not my problem or pines for that matter. The fact remains, its possible. FR

Once in the southern Sierras I saw a zonata and a cal king occupying the same crevice. It was a long horizontal crevice that went very deep. The crevice had differing widths from about 1/4 inch to 1 1/2 inches. I have gotten many zonatas out of such crevices and lost many too. When they are touched every time I can remember they retreat deep into the crevice if the crevice is structured so that they can. As I said this crevice went very deep but when I touched this particular zonata it did not retreat. It had jammed itself into the narrowst part of the crevice it could fit into and was locked in a tight round coil. The cal king was in a wider part of the crevice about 2 feet away from the zonata and it was in the process of retreating when I first detected it. It was very clearly a cal king, no red and the white bands were wavy, not srtaight like a zonatas. My interpretation of this observation is that the cal king was stalking the zonata and the zonata had lodged itself into a place that was too narrow for the cal king to be able to get it's jaws around it. I would estimate the zonata was about 2 feet long and the cal king about 3 feet long. I surmise the zonata was well aware of the cal king hence it's unwillingness to retreat or even move despite having easy access to the deeper part of the crevice.