Reptile & Amphibian Forums

How do you think this happens. The fact that it does is documented the queastion is how. Are all the eggs avaible to be fertilized at once?? Are some eggs killed by differant sperm??/ In my one experience with this I had slugs. Any other queastions that you guys have??
Thanks Jason

I think is what you are getting at is how a single clutch can have multiple fathers. Obviously the female has copulated to 2 males and at that point it's a simple race to the egg follicle for the sperm. Some of each father's sperm fertilize various eggs and in animals with big clutch sizes there are lots to fertilize. Look at the sperm sample (inside the female) as a mixture of both father's sperm each with their own genetic info.

Matt
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www.theselectserpent.com

This can happen with humans also. If a woman ovulates twice in one month and has sex with two different guys, she can have twins by two different fathers.

Just so you know...

Sorry I was rushed trying to get back to work and I did not ask the queastion I wanted to. Here it goes.

Having had a clutch that was from a genetic stand point, two definate differant fathers, I wondered how it happened. In my case I had a very dominate male that was with the female for a week or more before the second male was added. I did not witness any breeding until a week after the second male was added. I only ever witnessed the original male copulating with the female. I understand the idea of first come first served (no pun intended) but how are the eggs being fertilized?? Is it a few today and some tomorrow?

That said the queastions that I have are as follows.
1) How big of a window are the eggs available to be fertilized in? Is it one day or a week or what???
2) When a female is breed to a male is the sperm held until the eggs are ready?? (I believe this has been studied and proven but I have not read anything from a journal on it)
3)Taking number 2 into consideration how long before the eggs are "ready" will a female accept a male?
4)Kinda off topic but not really how long would you worry about sperm from male number 2 being viable. (I have heard of a zoo kept indigo haveing a good clutch 8 years after her last visit witha male.)
5) Anybody have any other good queastions??? I just got a phone call and lost my train of thought LOL.

Thanks Jason

that indigo his is a tricky one... i really can't make sense of it... is it possible that some females have the ability to store genetic "information" from a male till she's ready? i mean it would explain how a female can 2x clutch months after being with a male and laying her first clutch, i'm actually very interested in this, my goini female seems to be swelling up like she was when she was gravid, i should know soon what's going on (i.e. eggs or no eggs)... i'd love a 2nd clutch... it'd make me feel much better (seeing as i lost most of the 1st clutch)

the other theory... self fertilization... there is some lizard species that only produces females and the females don't copulate to become gravid, breeding is just simulated by another female and she can fertilize her own eggs...

so a new generation of hermaphrodite female reptiles? secret/unrecognized evolution that occurs in a select few?

~ZF

is the name for what you described as "self fertilization". Technically the babies are clones. I have also read this phenomenon known to occur with entire populations of Whiptails has also been documented in both a Burmese Python and a Timber Rattlesnake.

Look up work done by Dr. Gordon Shuette(sp) I believe he was at ASU when he published his work on parthnogentic occurrances in snakes.

From conversations with him. He found two distint types occuring and over many species. I believe his work was done thru genetic examination.

I tried to publish parthnogenetic events in Calkings in 1976 working under the Stephen Cogdon research grant. But peer review shot it down, simply because no snakes at the time were known to be parthnogenetic. Good luck, FR

~ZF

I have heard of the indigo female story from a few differant people but it might be a herper myth. I also heard of a zoo kept female cotton mouth that produce one offspring in her 8th year and she never had contact with any other snake. The kicker is the single offspring was luesistic(sp).
Later Jason
P.s. Give me a email if you get eggs from your goini

How does it happen.... well all sperm isn't good sperm... so if she "locks up" with one male today some eggs may be fertilized, while others are just left... the introduction of another male should fertilize the other eggs... or at least most of them should be fertilized

sort of like fraternal twins... i read an article when i was in HS about a Lady that had twin girls, one white the other interracial... turns out she slept with two men (different ethnicity of coarse) around the same time, she was able to ovulate from both ovaries... imagine the look on that obstetrician's face... lol

so i guess better results can be achieved by multiple breedings... rather than 2 males, which may result in confusions when the clutch pops out???

BTW Jason... i got another email from that guy... and it was just as you said... he said i was getting my payment as well as excess funds and wanted me to wire those funds to his "shipping carrier" the same day (when i got the payment)... i still can't believe this BS is for real! Thanx for all the info on that

~ZF

Ok how about when one breeding fertilizes all the eggs. I know there is variability in everything but I am wondering if we don't know what we think we know. In other words we think that when a female is bred all the eggs are fertilized by all the viable sperm. I am wondering though if not all the eggs are available at the same time. Or instead maybe the eggs drop into the area where they are fertilized over a period of time. The fact that sperm is stored short term is known but why.? Is it because the eggs drop down over a 2-3 day period.?? WE don't think about it like that but also think about when your eggs hatch... 2-3 days?? Is this a possible reason?? If you incubate all your eggs at the same temp then why do they hatch over a period of a few days?? Is it variable temps in the incubation box?? Well then how does an egg in the middle of two eggs hatch two days after the egg on either side?? Obviously I don't know the answers and there is variability in the eggs. I am just thinking in print to be able to get my ideas somewhere I can look at them and have people comment on them.
Later Jason

~ZF

1st of all let us stay on topic and not try and compare reptile reproduction to mammal (human) reproduction. It's really not as complicated as you all are making it. If multiple males are involved then multiple males can be the father as each individual sperm has the opportunity to fertilize the follicles as the female ovulates. If you are fortunate enough to have phenotypic variance among the offspring that point to individual males then the evidence is obvious. If not it's a guessing game which may not be desired if you NEED to know the genetics of the offspring for future breeding.

Matt
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www.theselectserpent.com

over a period of days/weeks, or are all eggs produced at once? I think that's part of what Jason is asking. If not, I apologize in advance.

I should make that my sig: "I apologize in advance".

From the observations of my females over time I would say there is a several day window but not weeks. Females can store sperm prior to ovulation for quite some time. Ultimately copulation will occur just before ovulation or at the onset (the females know when they need to breed) If no copulation occurs or if it is long after the ovulation the egg follicles are many times re-sorbed or "slugs" are laid.

Matt
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www.theselectserpent.com

Well I think part the problem is the answer is obvious to if it happens and the result of it happening can be obvious if you have differant morphs in each male but that is not really what I am asking. How it happens is. I understand that if two differant males both inject sperm then its a race to fertilize but what I am wondering/asking is what is going on inside. You see the idea in the race to fertilize would make you think that the first male would be the father of most or all the eggs. Having not planned on having two differant "fathers" I did not keep close tabs on who did what when. Also I never witnessed the second male do anything with the female and in fact his behavior is what clued me in to look closer at him and discover the truth.

Earlier in the year I mentioned that I had eggs from my females in about 30-40 days and alot of people found this odd. Most agreed that 60-75 days from breeding was more the norm. Later as the eggs started to be laid some here and there mentioned eggs in the 35 day area. Now add in multiple fathers and I got to wondering if the actual time of fertilization is much later than we think. There has to be time for both males to breed the female and fertilize the eggs. So I am wondering if anyone who has this happen has records on when each male was introduced?? (Frank what was your time line between males this year?) The mutiple males thing is kinda of a arrow pointing to the females and we should be noticeing this and thinking on it. Are we breeding to early?? Is the sperm being stored to long giving us some infertile eggs?? In the spirit of Franks post is there a way to fine tune how we breed our snakes to get better results and or less stress on the female?? I mean some of the king breeding can be quite stressful just to watch nevermind being the poor female.

Thanks Jason

I am not sure you have a strong handle on the reproductive biology of snakes. In fact, I am not sure any of us do. We may know the parts, but not the applied function. Or the function and not the parts. And of course, how they work together.

There are knowns, and there are unknowns. Then theres theory and opposing applied practice.

We know, snakes have two oviducts, we know that snakes have a sperm storage gland. We know that snakes produce follicules, that enlarge to ovum, which at some time becomes an egg. Also, before they are follicules, they go thru several other stages.

We know that the follicules are formed in the overies, at some point they enlarge and drop out of the overies. At this time they are in a clear membrane that connects to the oviducts. More of a bag, not a direct connection.

At some point, the enlarged ovum passes into the mouth of the oviducts, the ovum is then fertilized and shelled, then later deposited.

What we don't know, the exact timing of such and how thats effected by temps/conditions. Surely you understand, these are reptiles and do not contain the ability to metabolize a consistant temperature like mammals.

We know, that these things we call eggs can be absorbed, then at some point cannot be absorbed.

Do we know whether both oviducts are fertilized with one breeding. Whether a Cloacal plug forms over both oviductal openings or one at a time. Is there reason for males to breed from both sides?

Also, your sperm race is a little off, as we know the sperm is held in the sperm storage gland for many days before fertilization. There may be a race, but its a short one. Its as the ovum passes thru the area the sperm is stored in. You see, at the time of copulation, the ovum/eggs are not in the oviducts to be fertilized.

More we don't understands, what keeps the sperm from spreading all over the internal visera? One should consider, that it takes a certain set of conditions to keep sperm alive in the female. What is that? Then consider, this may perdict where the sperm is in the reproductive system.

And lastly, even without complete understanding of this, we have for decades had no problem breeding, selective breeding, and having great success. Just look around.

One tool thats rarely mentioned here is, palpating. Its very easy to tell when a female is receptive. All you need to do is, palpate follicules. When you can feel follicules(string of pearls) the female will be receptive. After the point those follicules enlarge, your verging on too late. This period lasts about two weeks. But then again, thats under X conditions, who knows with each individuals conditions. With experience, you can see when they are receptive well before you can feel follicules.

This last stuff was practiced and known well before most of you were born. Please tell me, all of you already knew this stuff. Thanks FR

Palpating yes I know that. Eggs are from the ovaries, yup I got that. But the rest of the post was like a lot of fill in the blanks for what I know and what I am wondering. Thank you for a very nice over view of the female reproductive system.

First I have not studied any college level biology and my high school biology was a joke and a long time ago so thanks for the refresher.

So new queastions and some repeats.
FR
1) Is there a paper/s on this subject that you would recomend?
FR
2) What was the time from male one to male three in your female this year?
Everybody
3) Do you think there is a way to fine tune the breeding timeing and prebreed conditions to make the process easier all around on the female?
4)Any theories on the timing between breeding and fertilization??

I know the horse is dying here but I am all for beating it a few more times.
Thanks Jason

Yes, its a lot of filling in the blanks, some from not doing enough timely disection. If you truly want to witness some of this, you will need to do your own work. I am not recomending killing your captives. Surely you could request dead animals from those who have failures. Or pick up road kills. Or visit local zoos and to sit in.

I have done them all. Unfortunately, in the early days, deaths were all to common. Also around my house, I witness several hundred snake deaths a year, Roadkills. So I have lots of oppertunity to investigate.

Many herp books have the basic biology of snakes, but not much in advanced reproductive biology.

As you have seen I get disappointed when I see nothing happening, particularly when there is so so much left to learn.

You seem disappointed with the missing information, maybe those blanks are there for you to fill in, good luck and I hope you help fill in the blanks. After all, it starts with questions that need answers. FR

I've been following this from the sidelines. A fantastic post with a lot of good information. I had some blanks to fill in as well. Thanks again.

"The fact that sperm is stored short term is known but why.? Is it because the eggs drop down over a 2-3 day period.?? WE don't think about it like that but also think about when your eggs hatch... 2-3 days?? Is this a possible reason?? If you incubate all your eggs at the same temp then why do they hatch over a period of a few days??"

I've been a lurker here for a few weeks now. I'm mainly a venomous keeper, Cobras and other New Guinea/OZ elapids mostly, but as of late have become a lot more interested in Kingsnakes. I've gained a good bit of info from many of you, so thanks for that.

I recently hatched out a clutch of Sri Lankan Spectacled Cobras. The pair were together for only 2 days. I saw them tied up once. She laid 30 eggs in a 24 hour period. Only 14 were viable. The 1st egg hatched on 5/31/05. The last egg hatched on 6/7. They were all incubated in the same container, and there was no thermal gradient. So, either she dropped her eggs over a week long period, and they were fertilized as they dropped, or less likely, I would think, it just took longer for the sperm to penetrate some of the eggs.

As far as sperm retention, I know of a Green Anaconda that was WC, kept in captivity for 9 years, having never seen a male in that time, and she all of a sudden had 11 babies I think it was.

Randy Ciuros