Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Chandler is just south of Mesa, East of Tempe.

As to Santa Gertrudis Lane, it's accessible by taking the Tumacacori exit off I-19, them turn north. It's a private road, but I never stay on it long enough to be seen, just passing through. It goes through the bed of the Santa Cruz river, which in the rainy season may need a 4-wheel drive to cross, or maybe just don't try to cross-flash floods, and all. The area is pasture with narrow tree belts around--leftover Cottonwood and mesquite bosque. Some pretty good stuff--lots of large slabs of Cottonwood bark in an open canopy/sparse grassland near water and grassy fields, all well-fertilized with cow dung. A spectacular dung beetle, Phanaeus amithaon, can be found in the pastures in favored years.

Pendleton Rd, which runs inexplicably north out of Rio Rico (to nowhere--it dead ends 10 miles up), can be accessed at the northern end via Santa Gertrudis Lane. Off the Pendleton Rd, there are some dump areas, including one that shows up on detailed maps (like topo maps) as "Borrow Pits". Not sure what that means, but there is a deep sump that may have some fairly nasty water in the botom, and bits of trash from old cardboard to chunks of concrete here and there.

For what it's worth, I did find that Regal Ringneck surface active at the rain puddle near the mouth of Madera Canyon along the Madera Canyon Rd one monsoon afternoon, and that's grassland for sure. The puddle is there every year. To see it, take Madera Canyon Rd to the access rd for the helibase just before entering Madera Canyon. Don't park on the helibase access drive--the helibase is for emergency air evac, and if a ranger finds you, he'll ask you to move. Park along the main rd. Anyway, the puddle is just at the East shoulder--to your left as you walk in, of the access drive--you can't miss it--it's about 30 feet long, and there all season. It usually has tadpoles in it, and lots of tiger beetles, mostly Cicindela sedecimpunctatta swarming around it.

Also see some nice big Regal Horned Lizards in the area. As to coralsnakes, that's their country. I'm surprised I haven't seen more in the vicinity of Rio Rico--one was on the driveway up to the resort. I also saw a baby Mojave Rattler at the Chevron station right in town across from the IGA market. Around 10 PM--I was looking for bugs at the lights. Mind you--all these anecdotes are accumulated over some ten years goofing around along I-19--you don't see all this stuff in one season.

OKAY! Weather update: dit-dit-dee-dit-dit-dee-dit...I'll be quiet. A tropical storm that just about washed Texas away is vacationing in northern Mexico and is expected to bring atypical levels of moisture into Az Thurdsay night and Friday. There is a chance of heavy rain all over the southeastern quad of the state, and maybe even the deserts like Ajo and Yuma. I'm hoping it stalls and lingers for the weekend--it could drop up to three inches of rain over a wide area if that happens. Even if it moves on through as forecast, it will still deliver a nice jolt of monsoon moisture to a desparate region, and who knows what will crawl out from under the rocks?

instead of putting it up for everybody.Next time you go out to your favorite dump spot and there are two cars and five people
there. You'll now why I replyed to your post.

For sure, you have a point, but I could give detailed instructions to any one of a number of "sites", and a hundred herpers would come up empty. Arizona is a tough place to herp, and luck is the numero uno factor. I wouldn't broadcast the location of a good site in Missouri or Oklahoma or California where things are more reliable, but collectors here are a lot more likely to find scenery than herps in any numbers. That said, I do want to point out that I appreciate your concern--and anyone's--over the resource, and if it were anything more substantive than a rain puddle and a sump that's usually dry and lifeless, I might indeed have shared it more selectively. These places are wide open, and I've even led field trips to them, so the kitty's sort of out of the sack on them anyway. I did consider my post beforehand...honest.

I disagree with you on that point. If you now the species that
your looking for and other conditions. Than Arizona is easy to
herp. You also have been giving away other road/spots on other
forums. There is nothing wrong with talking about what you found.
But it makes no sence when you live here to give away spots. You
would be suprised how many people monitor the forms just for that
reason.
Neurotoxin

Isn't the whole point of these forums to share information and connect with other people who enjoy Herps?? Why would you want to hoard that information? I think everyone would like a chance to see some of these amazing creatures in the wild, as they are, and sharing that information isn't a bad thing.

np

np

Me? I'm in Rhode Island. Why?

Ok!! Now I totally understand your post.

Lol..ok, but now I don't understand yours......
-----
1.0 Ball Python
0.0.1 Bearded Dragon
0.0.2 fish
2.1 cats
3.1 kids
1.0 husband

>>Isn't the whole point of these forums to share information and connect with other people who enjoy Herps?? Why would you want to hoard that information? I think everyone would like a chance to see some of these amazing creatures in the wild, as they are, and sharing that information isn't a bad thing.

If it's an area he found and he feels like sharing that information with others, that's his business. I could give exact, within a foot, directions to where I found the kingsnake I posted about above, and I guarantee not one person would show up to "hunt" the area.
Why does it bother you that he is willing to share?
-----
Jimmy (draybar)

I appreciate the appreciation, but Clark has a point--many a spot has been substantially altered once word got out. I also stand by my experience and that of others, including professionals and one, a friend, who might just be the most effective herper around, and one of the best outdoorspersons of this or any age. Collectively, we've driven roads thousands of times, flipped every cow chip in the state, discovered new state records, done original research, and pretty much worn the place threadbare, and between us, we've found...one Brown Vine Snake, for example. In 30 years. A few Green Rats, couple dozen Mountain Kings, some other things, but we could roll up the surface of Arizona like a carpet looking for reptiles and still get skunked.

Clark's concerns work in situations like "spots" for things like Chuckwallas, an animal that has suffered mightily at the hands of herpers somewhat blithe of scruple--rock outcrops destroyed, populations extirpated--I don't plan on giving out any GPS data on that species. Also, those bits of plywood in Oklahoma with fifty ringnecked snakes--those would be attractive targets for wholesale collectors. Probably don't want to be too detailed with that sort of locality description.

Sharing a road or two, directions to a rain puddle, I know there's no harm done, and I wouldn't have done it if I didn't expect someone to use the info. If I see some cars there when I go, I don't have a problem with that. New friends.

in Gilbert. I get upset when I see what word of mouth has done to
some Arizona natives. Not just reptiles. I had a spot in n. AZ.
that I could go and find 50 to 75 Dynastes grati (rhino beetles)
everytime. Now I go up there and see maybe 8 to 10. Last time I
went up there I saw three Japanese collectors picking up everyone
they could get. Anyone that follows the laws has as much right to
herp here as I do. But from what I've seen the ones that sit around and monitor the forums are also the same ones that over
collect and distroy. For the most part. Always looking for the easy way. Well this is one of those replys I wish I never would
have started.

I can't comment on the scruples of forum participants, but I have seen good sites trashed and over collected once word got out. I've also seen local land owners get upset about the new heavy traffic and they responded by destroying (cleaning-up, burning) the habitat (boards,etc.) for herps.

During the season of summer rains, lush, fuzzy plants and biting bugs may make you itchy. Rattlesnake bites will send you to the hospital. Cactus spines hurt, and sunburn is no picnic.

Lightning will kill you.

More people die each year in America from lightning than all venomous reptile bites combined. After Florida, southern Arizona receives more lightning strikes than any other region in the US. Summer rains in the Sonoran desert can be severe and unpredictable. They can generate enormous electrical charges, with lightning strikes miles away from the clouds. If you are enjoying Arizona during the summer rains, respect the danger these storms pose. If it starts raining, take shelter--indoors is best, but your car will have to do if no other options are available. The soils of the desert are laced with metallic ores--you could be standing on a several-acre lightning rod. Wait for the storm to pass before going out to see what may have flooded out of hiding.

Goofy as it seems, African Bees are another menace to outdoor recreationists. African-strain bees are established in southern Arizona and have caused human and animal deaths. Watch for the presence of bees as you move about (large numbers at a nest--not at flowers--they are not particularly agressive at flowers, just when defending the hive, which can be in any cavity). Be wary of any tree holes, holes in the banks of washes, or rubbish such as old appliances and discarded barbecues that show signs of bee activity. Avoid approaching possible hive sites if you see bees swarming about. African-strain bees will pursue a target for over half a mile, and can drive away any rescue effort. Best not to get involved with them in the first place. Be aware that these bees inhabit the region, and be prepared to abandon your activity if you encounter the first hint of agressive bees defending a nest. You should move as fast as possible in retreat--don't give the defending swarm time to organize. If you must drop cameras or other gear, come back later, even after dark to retrieve it. These bees are no joke, and they have changed the way hikers use the outdoors when in the bees' range.

Getting out is nice. Coming home is better.

I agree. Herping the desert and mountains of AZ can be dangerous. There are too many hazardous to discuss them all here, but let me just add a little anecdotal info to what KW has prepared us with.

Last summer I learned about flooding the hard way. I had to outrun wind and rain coming down in sheets from the Santa Ritas that threatened to cut me off from the exit out of the area. Even as I made it to the River before it flooded and started the two mile drive back to my house, I still couldn't make it before the flood waters came rushing through town and I had to drive through, at least two ft. deep, water rushing towards me right down the main street. I made it home, but was lucky I didn't lose my car, or something even more valuable.

When we were driving through the Chiricahuas last summer, we got hit by a hard rain just while we were crossing some of the highest elevations. Luckily we had four wheel drive and with some careful driving we made it through to Portal, but it made us pretty nervous. Those mtn. roads can get muddy and some of them curve around treacherous dropoffs. Sometimes streams of water will wash over them and cause erosion too. You have to always be thinking about what is the safest ways to do things, and have emergency plans.

When in the mtns. remember that venomous snake bites are esecially dangerous if you don't have a plan to take care of it and if you are a long ways from a hospital with antivenom. Don't take chances with venomous animals, whether it's a snake, lizard, bees, whatever.

Once, walking up a small hillside near my car, which I parked on the road, I was hit by a bee in the face. It came out of nowhere, and I did not provoke it. I immediately dropped what I was doing and headed in the opposite direction right back to my car. Luckily I sustained no more stings, as I had stumbled onto an African bee hive. The one sting was from a scout and had I been closer to the nest, I would have gotten lots more stings before attaining the safety of the vehicle. With binoculars I watched the bees come and go from the nest area further up the ridge. That sting really hurt. I can't imagine how terrible it would be to take dozens of those stings all at once.

Here's hopin' I don't sit on any cactus this year, LOL.

-----
Just looking, clicking, curious, studying, laughing, having fun, meeting cool folks, sharing. Live your dream, relax, smile, don't worry so much, love life. See ya there...TC.

I've been in Ohio the last two days helping a family member move. Stopped to see a fellow herper yesterday afternoon in the Toledo area and went out herping for an hr. or two, and found a bunch of Butler's garters, brown snakes, and a four ft. E. fox snake. Had a good time.

Anyway, enjoyed all the posts in this strand immensely. I'm glad everyone posted their ideas, and please don't feel bad about it. It was very educational.

I agree with most of what was said. If you look at some of my posts you'll see I'm usually pretty vague with my locations, for various reasons. Not because I don't like to share, however. I will share when I can.

Let me just give one example. I posted one of my favorite spots a couple years ago and the next summer there were twice as many herpers there as I'd ever seen before. Now, I don't care if herpers go up there and look around. I don't even care if they collect lawfully. What bothers me is if there's so many people that I can't get around in my own spot.

So, in some areas I don't care who knows about it, but if it's a private spot to me, I would expect friends to keep it pretty private too. However, most spots aren't very private, and if a lot of people already know about it, it doesn't matter much.

KW, I thank you for the info about the ringnecks and the corals. Those are spots I don't think will matter if anyone knows about them. I don't expect to find a ringneck or a coral next time I go, but maybe if I go over a number of years I'll get lucky on one.

What's most important to those locations is the ecology of the sites, which I believe was implied in our discussions. Tumacacori to Rio Rico is slightly higher in elevation than the G.V. area, as the Santa Cruz runs north to Tucson, and it's a bit more montane area, as the mountains are closer to the river there. Maybe that would be one of the reasons for the montane ringneck to be found in the river floodplain. I'll keep my eyes open in G.V. too, however, just in case they may be down there. That was cool info.

The alligator lizard I found in Madera Canyon was below 4,000 ft., well below the ringneck site you mentioned. I'm thinking some of the montane herps follow the major canyons to quite low elevations because there is suitable habitat just along the creek beds.

I know that site near the helibase, btw. I'll keep my eyes peeled for ringnecks in the area. Thanks for the info.

More discussion below....

>>Chandler is just south of Mesa, East of Tempe.
>>
>> As to Santa Gertrudis Lane, it's accessible by taking the Tumacacori exit off I-19, them turn north. It's a private road, but I never stay on it long enough to be seen, just passing through. It goes through the bed of the Santa Cruz river, which in the rainy season may need a 4-wheel drive to cross, or maybe just don't try to cross-flash floods, and all. The area is pasture with narrow tree belts around--leftover Cottonwood and mesquite bosque. Some pretty good stuff--lots of large slabs of Cottonwood bark in an open canopy/sparse grassland near water and grassy fields, all well-fertilized with cow dung. A spectacular dung beetle, Phanaeus amithaon, can be found in the pastures in favored years.

**Aren't the insects cool in this area. Although I don't have much time to look at them when I'm there I do admire the diversity and can't wait til we move in fulltime.**

>>
>> Pendleton Rd, which runs inexplicably north out of Rio Rico (to nowhere--it dead ends 10 miles up), can be accessed at the northern end via Santa Gertrudis Lane. Off the Pendleton Rd, there are some dump areas, including one that shows up on detailed maps (like topo maps) as "Borrow Pits". Not sure what that means, but there is a deep sump that may have some fairly nasty water in the botom, and bits of trash from old cardboard to chunks of concrete here and there.
>>
>> For what it's worth, I did find that Regal Ringneck surface active at the rain puddle near the mouth of Madera Canyon along the Madera Canyon Rd one monsoon afternoon, and that's grassland for sure. The puddle is there every year. To see it, take Madera Canyon Rd to the access rd for the helibase just before entering Madera Canyon. Don't park on the helibase access drive--the helibase is for emergency air evac, and if a ranger finds you, he'll ask you to move. Park along the main rd. Anyway, the puddle is just at the East shoulder--to your left as you walk in, of the access drive--you can't miss it--it's about 30 feet long, and there all season. It usually has tadpoles in it, and lots of tiger beetles, mostly Cicindela sedecimpunctatta swarming around it.
>>
>> Also see some nice big Regal Horned Lizards in the area. As to coralsnakes, that's their country. I'm surprised I haven't seen more in the vicinity of Rio Rico--one was on the driveway up to the resort. I also saw a baby Mojave Rattler at the Chevron station right in town across from the IGA market. Around 10 PM--I was looking for bugs at the lights. Mind you--all these anecdotes are accumulated over some ten years goofing around along I-19--you don't see all this stuff in one season.
>>

**I usually see at least a few regal horned lizards when I'm down in the summer. I love those guys and can't resist taking pics everytime I see one, haha.**

>> OKAY! Weather update: dit-dit-dee-dit-dit-dee-dit...I'll be quiet. A tropical storm that just about washed Texas away is vacationing in northern Mexico and is expected to bring atypical levels of moisture into Az Thurdsay night and Friday. There is a chance of heavy rain all over the southeastern quad of the state, and maybe even the deserts like Ajo and Yuma. I'm hoping it stalls and lingers for the weekend--it could drop up to three inches of rain over a wide area if that happens. Even if it moves on through as forecast, it will still deliver a nice jolt of monsoon moisture to a desparate region, and who knows what will crawl out from under the rocks?

**Man, that's great. If the area is getting hit hard, or even a little, that'll help me out. We're starting to pack today and will be heading out Monday morning early. I'll be up to my favorite spot Monday night. I can't wait. "It's so close, I can almost smell it."

-----
Just looking, clicking, curious, studying, laughing, having fun, meeting cool folks, sharing. Live your dream, relax, smile, don't worry so much, love life. See ya there...TC.