Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A few weeks ago I read in Daniel Bennett's Sav book that plywood must be sealed before used to build a cage, as it will release toxins into the air otherwise. This startled me, as I had just finished building a large cage. I'm a bit of a type-A, so this is really bothering me. I would like to put my monitor group into the cage I built, but now I'm having second thoughts about using it at all. I have a feeling I am over-reacting, but still...

The sealant itself seems like it'd be toxic--the list of chemicals in every can is endless. So, I'm between a rock and a hard place.

Any advice from someone who has a better understanding of this issue? I'm not looking for, "Oh, don't worry about it dude, it's just wood."

Thanks
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1.0 melinus
0.0.3 rudicollis
0.0.1 exanthematicus
0.0.1 niloticus

dont worry about it dude, its just plywood! sheesh
best of luck Mr. Type A personality. IF you are an anal type of person, monitors arent really for you, as they dont ever prescribe to any type of protocols set for them by you or anybody else, what works for one group of rudis may not be appreciated by another. Just go with the flow dude.

I've kept monitors for over a decade, but thanks for the worthless drug store psychology.
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1.0 melinus
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Curious then as to how you kept them? Didn't you put them in a cage?

Perhaps you just now are using wood cages but I find it odd you have such questions. Unless you just didn't learn anything in a decade. Then there is the fact that keeping them and doing something with them are two different things too I guess.

I've always either used large aquariums (40-135 gallon, depending on the size of the lizard), custom acrylic cages (but larger lizards tend to scratch them up), or wood-framed glass cages (built myself). This is the third plywood cage I've built, but the first in many, many years. I never thought to consider chemicals that might be in the wood when I was a kid.
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1.0 melinus
0.0.3 rudicollis
0.0.1 exanthematicus
0.0.1 niloticus

It should take alot less than a decade to learn why not to use bare wood. It rots, and very quickly when covered in a moist substrate.

As has been said any building material is going to leak some chemicals; plywood, OSB, plain old 2x4's, concrete, epoxies, FRP, etc..... There are far more important things to be concerned about.

--Robert

Thanks for that condescending post. Why couldn't you have just said, "All materials will leak some chemicals"? Don't bother responding to any of my posts, as I don't value your feedback.
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1.0 melinus
0.0.3 rudicollis
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0.0.1 niloticus

I can do much better than that and I'll respond to whatever I please. I didn't respond for you, you don't listen.

Good luck with your cages and your really agressive water monitors.

--Robert

For someone asking such "Newbie" questions, I highly doubt that you have kept monitors for over ten years. Maybe you mean you have been killing them for over ten years. You would think after 1 you would have realized that aquariums are for fish and not monitors. I would suggest you re-examine how many actual years you have had. Many of these guys that you have taken the time to bash have a hell of a lot more time in with monitors then you could begin to dream of having.

Keep up the good work and good luck becuase you will need it!

Have a nice day.

wow, i would say the consensus of monitor keepers agree. Its either not really that important,or you should of figured out along time ago after you turned your monitors into jerky from keeping them in aquariums. If you dont want stupid answers dont ask stupid questions while claiming to have this goldmine of experience.
cheers pal

Hey! KNOCK IT OFF!!! Does talking down to people make you feel better???

I have kept timor monitors in aquaria for close to 5 years, and produces eggs with semi frequent regularity.(I ALSO murder them with the same fequency, but hey, its a learning process) Aquariums dont necessarilly= death. Get off your highhorses.

His question were perfectly reasonable considering the source. YOU look for youself. You know, being a jerk, doesnt make you cool. FYI

How does it go?... ah yes, here it is:

Page 49, Paragraph 2
"Various coated partical boards(such as melamine and MDF) are quick to bubble and warp when the exposed board comes in contact with moisture and can release toxins. Other materials like plywood and concrete board are more moisture tolerant but even these will need to be sealed to keep out moisture or prevent the release of toxins. Inert waterproof options include polycarbonate, PVC or ABS panels which can be joined together or fixed to a wooden frame." D Bennett

I am glad that you can quote a book. That really says a lot. Thanks for the information and my horse is not that high, he is only 12 hands high. If you took the time to read the crap that this guy has spewed over the last few weeks and fights he has started, maybe you would think before you jump in and defend him. If someone had 10 years like they claimed, then the whole question never would have been asked as I am sure he can read to. All that has been done is quoting Daniel Bennet, King, and Wilson. Keeping monitos is about learning through time and adapting to fit their needs. I am sure that after a short time one would realize that...hmm....this aquarium is just not working, maybe I should look at another means to house them.

Thank you.

sounds more like a pony. heh

anyways, its still ridiculous to call names and whatnot. So what if you think someone is a complete moron? Its still no good reason for an internet flamefest. If hes not worth reading, then dont read his posts.

His concerns were not unjustified based on the reading he did. Nothing beats practical knowedge/ experience, but you cant beat the guy up for trying to do his homework. Especially when hes actually picking up worhtwhile books.

As far as your snide comment to me about me quoting a book, I was clarifying where he got his info, so others could look it up thenselves if they wished to do so. Dont jump my case buddy.

Norcal--Thanks for the post--I was beginning to wonder if everyone on this board was an arrogant, self-proclaimed expert. LOL. There are some quality posters here, and then some who were picked on in school and desire to play "bully" behind their keyboards. It's actually pretty funny.

Addison75--I can tell by your posts you don't have a clue what you're talking about, so please avoid posting to my threads in the future. Thanks!

Ackiesnalbigs--Ditto above.

RobertBushner--A long-term member of this forum whom I've been e-mailing with said you're a jackass--now I know what he means. Oh, and ditto above.

Thanks ladies!
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1.0 melinus
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It is clear who the jackass here is Samsun. Take your white lies and BS elsewhere. Ten years...what a joke. Kind of like yourself.

But it's Mr. Jackass to you.

--Robert

Do you like Toyota Mr2's? Live in Sac?

Glass aquariums can work very well for small species of monitors, as long as the top is designed well. The only downside is they are much heavier than plastic bins. There are plenty of glass aquaria large enough to house ackies, gillenis, etc. You can think of them like mini glass troughs, it's all about the top and the monitor in the cage.

--Robert

ok, I recently have seen a thread of posts over on another forum mentioning you liked it there because it was less argumentative and more friendly, however your first post started a debate that now after reading it seems that its beginning to get heated and off topic of monitors. Odd that you go to a place that is normally quite pleasant and it turns the first post of yours into a crap throwing contest? very odd, i believe from most of your smug BS replies to everybody that trouble comes with you. If you want help and suggestions then dont be an ingnorant F**K when people give you their suggestions, its that simple.
On another note if you have been keeeping monitors over a decade I somehow think you should of known by now that the toxins released from building materials arent harmful to monitors, that is unless your cages are all glass aquariums of various sizes? You are one of those confrantational people always looking for a internet argument so you can use your fancy vocabulary in efforts to make yourself look intelligent, and so far its not really working, you have however made yourself look like a d*ck. I have a real challenge for you............................ FIGURE OUT SOMETHING FOR YOURSELF!!!!
cheers

LOL--thanks, that was good.

There were several very useful replies to this thread (BGF, FR,drzrider,SHvar), and I am now more at ease and have put together a plan to seal my cage correctly (I would never have known that off-gas takes several days, etc).

You say that plywood/particle board toxins have no effect on monitors. The problem is, you don't know that. Have you done long-term studies on the subject? Heck, the EPA says if there is exposed plywood in your home, you need to cover it up. I was just reading about it, and apparently heat and humidity make the toxicity increase up to five-fold. But, a good sealant appears to solve the problem.
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1.0 melinus
0.0.3 rudicollis
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Guezz, what about styrene in the sealant? Or formaldehyde in particule board? or? or?

Nothing is safe, what will we do? If it were me, I would put the monitors in their cage, then go hit myself in the thumb with a hammer, so I will have something else to worry about. In fact, thats what I normally do, just not on purpose. FR

So pine wood is toxic for them as well? cause if so that sucks i had a cage that i built and im gunna have to redo one now. let me know and dont be sarcastic about so much stuff cause all ur doing is discoraging future people to handle and take care of these animals. like me i love my animals, and i know u know alot about them, but when people sit there and be little sarcastic pricks then that makes me wonder so if u can answer my ? with a simple answer that would be great thanx.

tokay17

For our waterproofing of branches etc. we use polyurethane (oil rich), the rock hard type for floors, bench tops etc. We put multiple coats on with a few days drying between each coat and then several weeks for the final off-gas before we put the animals in.

We also use the super-hard baby safe enamel paint. It costs a fair bit but nothing is too good for our goannas

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

I also use polyurethane to seal the inside of my cages. It takes a while because you need to wait days in-between coats and then it has to offgas. I haven't had any problems with this method yet, but my cages are 2 years old or less.

I worry more about the chemicals that are in my water and parasites in my feeders than the chemicals that are in the plywood.
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Ed

These heat lamps make my electric bill to high.

What exactly is "off-gas?" Is that when the harmful chemicals evaporate?
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1.0 melinus
0.0.3 rudicollis
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Yep. Always run the heat lamps etc. for a couple weeks prior to putting the animals in. A good rule of thumb is to wait at least one more week past the last time you could smell fumes.

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

Thanks for that genuinely helpful post. I am wondering, though--what's the different between oil-based and water-based polyurethane? I saw both types and the store, and didn't know which would be more ideal, or which would leave less residue.

Thanks...
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1.0 melinus
0.0.3 rudicollis
0.0.1 exanthematicus
0.0.1 niloticus

Plywood, particule board, OSB, FRP, urethanes, epoxies, polyester resins, Latex paints, enamel paints, etc. Have not shown harmful effects on captive monitors. If each are done/applied properly.

All have been used successfully. By far more harmful is the understanding or lack of understanding and more importantly the application of longterm husbandry. I believe this to be of more harm and more continious harm then the above.

As you mentioned above, your being anal. Well not really anal. Anal may be overdoing whats really needed, not worrying about what is not a problem.

Of course all of the above do emit some varying assorted offgasses. Some have a harmful effect on mammals(lab mice) But again, none have shown any sensitivity to varanids.

With all due respect for you and your monitors, I would suggest taking these things in proper order. Control the most harmful first, then work on down the line. And if you really are a Type A anal person, someday, you will run out of problems.

Consider, its my personal opinion, most educated people fail with monitors by over doing all these things, not underdoing them. I believe my advantage was and is, I do whats needed and let the monitors do the rest. Good luck FR

so pine ply wood is alright cause i had a polyurethane coat on it. excuse my spelling. but was that what u were saying cause so far so good on my part, but i dont want to see my monitor get deathly sick on down the road from the pine plywood. thanx

tokay17

It has to do with what solvents are in there. Not sure it makes a huge difference in regards to potential toxicity. In either cases, you have to wait for it to off-gas anyway.

Cheers
B
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

Of bothered me with it was the smell of the wood before I got it cut, coated on one side with FRP and paint on the other, it just smelled like a lumber yard in the basement, lol.


Not only that almost every cage I have has pine plywood basking spots except Sobeks European hardwood plywood basking spot, and 2 that use corkbark, it was cheaper and looked nice and smelled less.

oo ok thank u thats all i needed to really know. so my girl is doing fine so we will have to see cause youve had some success on it maybe i will too.

why the cement blocks on the bottom? not trying to be a prick, i really wanna know.
thanks
-jake

They support the very very heavy cages, that cage has a total of 15 under it, the 3x3x6ft cages have 9 under them each, the 55 gallon has 2 under it, etc. It gets them off of the floor, prevents temperature transfer the floor and allows a space under it. I used them as I have many left and they can support the thousands of pounds of weight in a big cage, remember theres 1-2ft depth of dirt in these cages.
By all means ask questions, remember the floor will either raise or lower them temps of the substrate which causes heating issues, this reduces the effect and makes cleaning under them easier.

Correction, I was typing too fast, the big cage has 15 under it in 5 rows.

How does it go?... ah yes, here it is:

Page 49, Paragraph 2
"Various coated partical boards(such as melamine and MDF) are quick to bubble and warp when the exposed board comes in contact with moisture and can release toxins. Other materials like plywood and concrete board are more moisture tolerant but even these will need to be sealed to keep out moisture or prevent the release of toxins. Inert waterproof options include polycarbonate, PVC or ABS panels which can be joined together or fixed to a wooden frame." D Bennett