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Just got back from the Daytona Reptile Expo today and had a great time as I saw some familiar faces and got to meet some new people in person. The turnout was great and although I saw more Ball Pythons than anything else, there were lots of cool things to see including many Eastern Kings. I got to meet Tony D as he had a table at the show and I think we had a nice discussion. There were a few Apalachicola Kings being sold but I think I saw more of the Blaze Phase around the show. I eventually got over to Gulf Coast Reptiles' table and introduced myself to Chris and Sheila. When I told Chris who I was, he immediately walked away but I got a chance to talk with Sheila for a while. All I have to say is Sheila is one of the nicest people I met at the show and she was more than willing to talk to me about their kings and where they came from. When the discussion of the Blaze Phase came up, she told me the characteristic they see of the Blaze is that the blotches in the juveniles are lightened and red...it has nothing to do with pattern. Dr. Bernard Bechtel and Bill and Kathy Love examined these and told Sheila they believe the result is from hypererythrism. This would certainly explain the high amounts of red seen in these individuals. I also spoke with Bill Love and chatted a little about the hypo gene. He stated that there are several strains of hypomelanism and just because you breed one hypo to another and get all normals doesn't mean anything as it's highly possible that you're dealing with different strains of hypomelanism. So Bluerosy's breeding of a hypo FL King to a Blaze "goini" doesn't really prove anything at all. Either way, Sheila explained to me that their Blaze originated from stock they bought from Lloyd Lemke and they noticed high amounts of red in certain individuals. These were bred back to each other and eventually they came up with the Blaze Phase animals. She stated no FL Kings were bred with these so her assumption is that they are true "goini". I spoke with several other breeders that were selling Blaze Phase and it seems there is a bit of confusion as to what exactly a Blaze Phase is. One breeder said it's definitely not hypererythrism and another believed it's from a hypo gene which was my first guess. All in all, I think it only adds to the confusion especially since so many have a hard time telling what a true Apalachicola King or "goini" really is. One breeder even said he believed the striped phase wasn't a "goini" and only the blotched forms are the real thing...this population really has confused alot of people.

Anyway, I had a great time today but was surprised to find out a certain individual had been going around and talking about me to alot of the breeders. Sheila was the first to tell me that Bluerosy had stopped by and said a bunch of things to her. She told me he notified her of my presence at the show and he basically badmouthed me and suggested they get a group together to confront me, jump me, whatever. Bill Love told me he had heard the same thing. After a few more breeders told me this, I decided to find Bluerosy myself with no luck. I even went back to Gulf Coast Reptiles' table and Sheila and I walked around together looking for Bluerosy never finding him. All I can say is, any respect I ever had for Bluerosy is completely gone now. I tried to find you Rainer to talk to you about this in person but I could completely care less about it at this point. You showed me today that you have no maturity whatsoever and honestly, I feel like it's a waste of time with you.

In the end, I finally bought this nice specimen...a nearly patternless female Apalachicola Kingsnake.

This one was not purchased from GCR but after talking to Sheila it sounds like one of their pairs originated from some wild caught animals from the 70s. I'm going to do do some research and see what I can find out and if I can trace the lineage somehow, I'm going to post my results on here. Sheila was more than helpful and informative and if anyone felt like I may have talked bad about her in the past, I am personally apologizing here as Sheila and I have settled any differences and forgiven each other for anything that has been said. To all the other people I saw at the expo, it was great talking with you!
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My signature is pure...the purest of them all.

Hey is that Mark aka CrimsonKing behind the Hardford sign?? Oh yeah how do you know that is a pure Goini???

Just kidding nice animal. Don't worry too much about Rainer. It will all work out in the end.

You are very serious about a pure AK and he is more into crosses and hybrids. You guys will never see eye to eye. Let it go as you will not gain any respect but instead you might lose some. Not from me I like you but you know what I mean

Later Jason

I ran into Crimsonking and also Evil Elvis, And the perpetual Greg Longhurst. I was able to catch Rom for an autograph on his snakes of India book (recommended).

Lots of Kings there-though I was disappointed in my search for the perfect 'Black and white' Eastern Chain king.

The snakes in BIG Numbers this year were Red Bullsnakes and Ball Pythons a great deal of duplication in Milks and any of a number of species of tri-color kings. Mole kings were up in numbers too.

The high point for me Kingwise...was the discovery of Lindsey's table which had Locality South Florida Mole Kings which of course are the rarest of the rare! Got a dandy little fellow from him to replace the male I lost this year.

Most of the rest was pairing up my Savu, Bismark Python and Side Winder. But I also got a beautiful pale Blonde mad. Hognose and a particulary alert little Massasauga.

A great show....

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Thanks for the pics of the expo and the king. Really bummed I was not able to make it this year. It sucks that their is so much hostility between individuals in this community!
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Scott Wahlberg

Just do not talk about it here, show the dang snakes, more snakes, lots more snakes. Please consider humor too.

I was disappointed yet again, one snake picture and blocks of words about human conflictions. Show the snakes please, FR

keep the drama to yourselves...

Also to the ones passing judgement... it would be best "you" evaluate yourselves first before formulating diagnosis.

~ZF

Right on Zee!!!! Good Word!!!

Pat

ABsolutely!the team @ Gulf coast was truthful on their animals i aquirred a few that are goini x fla.and a Pure . but they were HOT they were in no way in my opinion passing hybrids as pure ! and the beauties I aquired will only be used in a hybrid program. I met and talked w/ Bluerosy and he was pleasant and sold me a wanted animal.Chris

I tried to replying to your hostile comment 10 times before giving up since it would no doubt be deleted. I will say the vibe at the auction was great...and I am sure many who do not see eye to eye were in the same room tolerating everything. Wish you coulda made it. I will see you online and talk to you about the "other" things. Tom Stevens

Jason, Did you get a chance to make it to the expo this year?
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My signature is pure...the purest of them all.

Hey Sean,
No I didn't make it to the big show this year. I am in Chicago now and its a liittle more than the 2 hour drive it used to be. Wish I had made it though.
Later Jason

Jason... I don't think I was anywhere around that sign...lol!
My table was a few aisles over......
Pretty good show and although I did miss Sean, I saw many other friends and made a few new ones...
:Mark

Mark, I looked for your table and for some reason I could not find it. I found Lindsay Pike and he showed me the direction you were in but I guess I probably walked past you. I wanted to say hi while I was there but oh well.
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My signature is pure...the purest of them all.

That's cool Sean...It's not like there's a detailed map or anything in the Expo flyer...ha!
I get lost just going to the restroom. Of course all the pretty little snakes don't help....
Hope to get up your way sometime as I met a few herpers from "up north" with some helpful hints....
:Mark

I had a flyer Mark but I seemed to keep running into people and don't think I really got around to seeing all the tables at the show. In fact, I think I made it through two rows and Pierson had already made a round through the entire expo. Either way, I would have liked to stopped by. Let me know if and when you make your way up here again.
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My signature is pure...the purest of them all.

Yeah I should have known. The guy I was looking at was not wearing a hat. LOL You don't sleep in that thing do you??
Just Kidding
later Jason

Sean thats a beauty ! Looks like it may be one of the white types when it gets older. Man I would have been all over that snake if I saw it. As far as the Rainer stuff Im not suprised at all that dude needs a clue.

Keith
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Keith, one of the reasons I bought that snake was the complete lack of red. Should turn out nice as an adult!
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My signature is pure...the purest of them all.

...
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
Diadophisdude@yahoo.com
www.freewebs.com/mikesnake

Quote "I also spoke with Bill Love and chatted a little about the hypo gene. He stated that there are several strains of hypomelanism and just because you breed one hypo to another and get all normals doesn't mean anything as it's highly possible that you're dealing with different strains of hypomelanism."
~Sean

Different strains of hypomelanism within the Fl. Ssp. or in the world of kingsnakes or world of snakes in general?

if you mean within Florida kings i'll have a hard time believing that... why isn't there any documentation? i do know there are two KNOWN forms of hypomelanism within the FL. Ssp. (what we know plainly as hypo and what Rainer refers to a Peanut Butters... so may also know that these to forms of hypomelanism are not allelic)... so where are the other strains?

many hypo brooksi look different color wise... but i'm sure a yellow hypo and a red/orange hypo will breed and produce hypos

can you please comment more on that part of your discussion with Bill Love... was he just referring to Fl kings?

Thanx

~ZF

Bill's response was from my question about hypo FL Kings so I assumed that is what he was referring to. I've heard there are several different strains of hypomelanism in Corns as well so this could be with all snakes in general.
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My signature is pure...the purest of them all.

First, Sean, that is an awesome snake!!!! It will be interesting to see as an adult!!!
As to different strains of Hypos, I have three different lines of Hypo Bullsnakes. It is my understanding that Hypomelanism is simply reduced melanin expression in the critter's color. Is there a standard amount of reduction? My Stillwater Bulls have much more black than either of the other strains I have. What do y'all think???

Pat

I have heard of the mutiple strains in corns (as many as 13!!) so a second one in other animals would not be that unbelievable. I saw but did not read the thread below about the blaze being recessive or not. What was decided, if you don't mind giving me the short version. As for their background I have never been that impresssed with them so I don't care one way or another. Not trying to be a jerk I just don't care what is accepted for their background. The queastion is why do we think we will figure this trait out. WE still have no idea what is behind the Tangerine phase in hondos and that been around for a longer time. For all our glory there is much we may never know
Later Jason

I think you are looking at it wrong ZF. He probably means strains as in different lines i.e. Krysko, Beard, Love and Bell. All are compatible but have somewhat seperate histories maybe or maybe not relating to one another.

Keith
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Or he could be suggesting another form of Hypo that is not compatable with those other ones. We over simplify the differant looks expressed by our animals. They have to be albino or hypo or anery or something else we are familar with. I think and hope there is more out there than what we know for color morphs.
Later Jason

Deliberately or not Sean has misinterpretted Bill’s comment.

Yes breeding a blaze goini to a hypo books and getting all nomals does not prove that the blaze trait is NOT a form of hypomelanism. It DOES however prove that the Blaze was not created by crossing goini with the established lines of hypo books which BTW are all compatable. That Sean has STRONGLY inferred GCR created Blaze by crossing goini to hypo brooks my friends was the whole reason Rainer and I undertook this particular cross!

For those interested I’ve provided a link to Sean’s comment from Sept 11, 2003. Even after pretty good arguemnts to the contrary by Keith Hillson and myself (yes sometimes Keith and I agree) Sean has persisted in prepetuating his misconception for almost two years! Now after the proof is in he’s still looking for wiggle room.

Got to keep in mind folks that nobody ever said these were “pure” (choke cough) line bred locality kings! GCR’s only assertion was that Blaze popped up independently in their line of hi red goini and that the trait was a simple recessive.

Since we are kind of one the subject of being man enough to admit it when you’re wrong, I’ll say this. I defended the position that the Blaze trait was a hyPERetheristic (sp?) type morph. On this point I’ll concede that I was likely wrong. After some EXPERIENCE with the trait and how it behaves I now believe it is best described as a type of hypomelanism. And yes, Sean had it right on that count.
Sean's post

I purchased three adult Blaze that originated from GCR and I don't think there is any reccessive trait at work. I think the patterns and color are similar to my het easternxhypo brooksi adults. I also think the patterns in goini and brooksi have nothing to do with determining what they are. I have bred hundreds of them and have been crossing them so ya think I would know somewhat what I am talking about.

I guess I added another third opinion to what the Blaze are. One thing for sure the "Blaze" tern should never have been used and that is what caused a lot of confusion. But if this herp community wants to call them a type of reccessive that is fine with me

male

female #1

female #2

BTW Sean could not have been looking for me that hard since I am in the bottom left hand corner of his picture he posted. I am the one walking down the isle looking down with the green and yellow flower shirt. Check the bottom left corner right above the grey haired fellow with the blue shorts who is leaning over.LMAO!

I thought Chris and Shela had proved it to be a resesive? Will agree on the name though. "Blaze" sets up an expectation for what the adults will be that just isn't going to be realized without a few more generations of selective breeding!

Didn't look yet but that's too funny about the pic! LOL

I just got back from the expo and am to tired to pick this BS apart. Basically Sean has it all wrong. I don't have anything against Sean and people at the expo were basically messing with him. Sean whoever told you this was pulling your chain.

As far as talking with TonyD and Shealia thats great. What you said about them really has nothing to do with me and all I ever did was prove you wrong by breeding the hypo to the Blaze.

Everyone was polite but "tierd of messing" with him would have been more appropriate. Its really not worth loosing any sleep over. Obviously he doesn't care that his efforts unjustly damaged the rep of a fellow herper or he wouldn't be trying to wiggle out from under such clear proof he was wrong. We can't change that Rainer. Everyone who's followed this knows the deal so lets move on.

Obviously he doesn't care that his efforts unjustly damaged the rep of a fellow herper or he wouldn't be trying to wiggle out from under such clear proof he was wrong. We can't change that Rainer. Everyone who's followed this knows the deal so lets move on.

Sheila got out of colubrids because of Sean. She told me that a while ago and she told me AND SEAN that at the expo. Sean conveniently left that part out.

Whats funny is that people like Sean are so worried that someone might find a locale morph and loose out on the money from that because someone created a crossed morph but nobody worries what reputaions was lost for someone like GCR because of his posts. Very damaging.. and if I was to start a
flame war it would be because of people doing this rather than about some pure vs morph type arguement. I beleive what Sean did would be legally considered slander.

Technically slander is taking it a bit far and I don't think the charge would hold after reviewing the threads. That Shela and Chris were VERY upset and the project has been damaged however, is beyond refute.

I beleive the original threads from about two years ago where erased. I think the definition of slander fits well but proving anything from a legal standpoint is near impossible. Besides GCR has moved on long ago from this whole situation.

I do think we learned something. Unfortuately this herp community does not realize what damage it has allowed by continuing to suppost someone like Sean after he has been exposed. It will take a few more years for people to come around and realize what he did was very very wrong. At the very least he should have had a public wash and ban.

That's a beauty Sean!
I saw a cool little striped baby this morning that tempted me a bit but I resisted
I showed great restraint...I only came home with one new snake (and that was a pre-arranged deal). I also got some cool dart frogs for my wife.
Good to see you again,
Chris

It was good to see you again too Chris. I didn't plan on buying anything at the Expo but when I saw that one I couldn't help myself. Pierson bought a really nice patternless male at the expo last year so it will be interesting to see what these two produce in a couple of years.
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My signature is pure...the purest of them all.

The patternless male I have was bought at the venomous expo in Greenville, SC not Daytona.
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Pierson Hill

Herpetology and Herpetoculture

I spoke to Chris (whom I have known for many years) about the blaze phase goini. He also said that the founder stock came from Lloyd Lemke's "orange phase goini".
Chris said that the blaze animals appeared from the orange goini but that they were much more intense. I am not sure if he bred sibling Lemke animals together though.
Also, when asked if he knew the background of Lloyd's animals Chris very honestly said that he "couldn't vouch for them".

How long were you at the show Carl? I looked for you but we were only there from around 12:30pm til 5.
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My signature is pure...the purest of them all.

We spent the better part of both days there.
But since some people paid me to beat your scrawny brains in, I figured you were hiding from me!
BTW, Barb was sad not to have met you.

You were paid? How much was I worth? I was looking forward to meeting Barb as well. Either way, I'll see you both in September. Hope it cools down by then. Our heat index today is supposed to be somewhere around 110!
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My signature is pure...the purest of them all.

"They" offered quite a bit more but I told them that $3.00 would be just fine.
Will see you in a few weeks.

I wouldn't even beat on an inexperienced scrub for free but everyone has their price.

Remind me to hire you the next time I want someone taken out.

Took the redeye (rental car) from Louisville Saturday night with some of my buds and made it to the expo Sunday morning. I'm not too much into the herp show thing but the Daytona expo is always interesting. I wish now I would have looked closer at some of the vender name tags. It would have been fun chatting with some of you folks that I missed. I did get a chance to catch up with some of you. I met Kevin Enge and caught up with Chris (gila). Talked a bit with the mudsnake (Daniel P) and as always it was great to talk with Dick Bartlett and I finally met his lovely wife Patricia. I also talked with a couple of fellow Pit afficiendo's. Picked up a couple of good books and saw way too MANY ball pythons lol! There were some nice kings for sale but not as much selection as I thought there might be. I was especially impressed by a few of the brooksi and a large pair of easterns from "some beach in Va". I probably would have bought this pair if I felt more comfortable with the locality as they were some impressive animals. Kevin Enge had some really nice Ga kings as well as some Tallahassee area kings which tempted me greatly. I didn't see much at all in the way of ANF kings but maybe I missed some. Only a scant few splendida and holbrooki and no nigra. 13 hour drive from Louisville, 7 hours at the show and 13 hour drive back. In all an interesting 33 hours! One of the best part of trips like this is the conversation that goes on in the wee hours of the morning when we are trying to keep each other awake. Phil
Official Black Kingsnake website

Since I'm in Va. my curiosity is killing me. What beach was the locality of those Va. Eastern Kings if you remember?

Steve

Steve, if I thought the vendor knew with certainty the locality I would have gladly thrown down the three bills. They were truly impressive and the nicest adult L.g.getula that I saw at the show by far. It was his inability to tell me with certainty which beach in Va they came from. I did appreciate his honesty though. Phil

Ok now I understand. I was a little slow on that one. Yea, saying some beach in Va. could mean many things. Is it the city of Virginia Beach, which is the most populated city in Va. Or is it on a beach, which could be in Va. Beach, Buckarow Beach, Sandbridge...who knows.

Steve

Man that's a long trip Phil! Wish we could have stayed until Sunday and met up with you guys. Did you end up getting anything at the show? I saw that adult pair of Easterns too and was tempted but decided not to for the same reasons you did.

It would have been good to see you and Pierson again. I did pick up a couple of good books. I bought Dick Bartletts book on Florida snakes and a copy of Donald Wheelers "Tales from the golden age of rattlesnake hunting". This to me was the best buy at the show at $10 a copy. I wish I would have bought a few more copies now. Phil

Be sure to look for a post by me with plenty of pics on next monday or maybe this weekend. And don't worry. there will be plenty of pics.
hopefully some of you guys will make it out to the Austin show this weekend Tom Stevens

I'll look forward to it Tom. I won't be anywhere near Texas anytime soon so unfortunately I won't be able to make it to the Austin show. I'll have to remember the show next year though. My sister just moved to Austin so it gives me another reason to make a trip out there.