Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Remember me? My ball that I've had for 12 years laid a clutch of eggs even though she has never been with another snake the entire time I've had her!

Well, the pic speaks for itself...

Now what? What do I feed it? When?
Link

Your saying that your female ball retained sperm for 12 years and that it was still viable after all that time? Amazing story and it would have to be some kind of record for sperm retention. Congratulations !!!
Wait until it sheds, about 10 days. Make sure to have a water bowl in with it and near the heat source. Higher humidity will help with the first shed. A hide is also a good idea. After it has shed you can offer it a rat pink, mouse fuzzy or hopper as its first meal.

We just got back from the pet store. Picked up a 10 gallon tank, heat pad, water dish and hideout. It's still in the shell but had it's head poking out when we got home...it's sooooo cute!

We are very excited and never imagined this ever happening.

What's a "hopper" exactly? There are only a few pet stores in the area, I will call around and hopefully find a suitable first meal.

They will take small mice for the first meal.
(Unless it is very small.In which case,it will need a mouse crawler)

When people refer to "hoppers" they mean a young mouse that while it already has its eyes open and is just starting to hop around(instead of still crawling around).

Just observe the largest girth the snake has and do not try to feed a prey animal larger in girth than that.

Congratulations on your immaculate addition to the family
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

Congrats first of all. let It shed. Then offer it a hopper Mouse or a rat pinKie/fuzzy.

>>Remember me? My ball that I've had for 12 years laid a clutch of eggs even though she has never been with another snake the entire time I've had her!
>>
>>Well, the pic speaks for itself...
>>
>>
>>Now what? What do I feed it? When?
>>Link
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Thomas Jones
aligatorhunter@cox.net

Ahhhh yes, the "imaculate conception" . First of all, if it's born with a halo, I wanna see a pic Seriously, do like the other posters have said. Good luck with it.

Quig

That this snake has both sex organs. I know some species like the lance head can have both. In humans it's called a hermaphrodite.

Just speculating not stating it as a fact.

But a recorded 12 year long plus viable sperm retention is amazing.

Congrats, you should write a paper and send it to some magazines like Reptiles or something.
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Snowballs

That thought crossed my mind also. I never knew of any snakes having this so didn't speculate. Would be a first in the Ball python species though wouldn't it?

Quig

It would be called a hermaphrodite in any species, not just humans. However in no case that I'm aware of can a hermaphrodite actually mate with itself. They still need to mate with another individual to produce offspring.

What may have happened here is a phenomenon known as parthenogenisis. It has been well documented in captive rattlesnakes and other snake species. The babies are essentially clones of the mother. I guess a DNA test would be required to prove if this is in fact what has happened.

Another poster has posted an similar story to this one. Its looking like some (rare) females have the ability to reproduce in this way in captivity when no males are available....

I admittedly dont know much about hermaphrodites and thier reproductive capabilities.

It's just someplace I would rather not let my mind wonder off into.

But I am glad some know more about it. Thanks for sharing with me.

Still a pretty amazing event no matter how it happened.
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Snowballs

LOL, yer right they would still need a mate, and I'd not heard of parthenogenesis in anything but a very few lizard species.

Quig

There are a few known cases in which Parthenogenesis has occured. Usually envolving older females that have been isolated from males most if not all their lives. There is even a scientific article about a Burmese python that has reproduced through obligate parthenogensis 2-3 years in a row. Not only was that the fist proven case of parthenogensis in pythons, but I believe it was the first time any snake was shown capable of obligate parthenogenesis.

So it looks like a DNA test would be on order?
Finally, information that makes some kind of sense.
I plan to contact the local college for some possible help with this phenomenon.

Thank you.

I saw a story about a virgin rattlesnake female that gave birth to 5 baby male snakes.
She had NEVER been bred, but she had babies.

Scientist theorize that it is a built in emergency mechanism that allows the snake to give birth to future mates to ensure survival of the species.

And people wonder why I think snakes are so damn cool.

sort of like the frogs that change sexes

if those babys bred thier mother than they would be super inbreds
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my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)

Congratulations!!!! That is so awesome!

In about 10 days it'll shed then you can offer it it's first meal - My local pet shop always has those small mice that are useless for feeding a regular size ball - but they work great for hatchlings - you know the ones - they are about an inch to 1 1/2 inches long.

You may also want to reconsider the 10 gallon for a couple of weeks and set your hatchling up in a small sterilite - just until it gets onto a good feeding schedule - the small space gives them a greater comfort and sence of security - once you get them established you can move it into the tank - Just a thought.

Congrats again!
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Tosha

"One of these days i am going to wake up..look around...and realize my place looks more like "Ace Venturas"s than my own." Coldthumb

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul "JP"
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 lizard rescued from vicious feline

Peek-a-boo!

I don't believe it.
Something must have happened we don't know about.
Maybe a male introduced with her while you were on vacation...... who knows.
Maybe you just made this whole thing up.
I think we will defintitely need some more scientific info. on this.
If this really is true, then you have a miracle, and have to document this accordingly, including the news.
Would made a great story.
But I'm a pecimist and this is the internet.
You can't just take what everyone says for true without proof.
Good luck anyhow.

I can assure you this story is the truth, you can believe it or not it still won't change the facts of what has happened here.
I am personally stunned with what has happened here and am still in a state of shock.

As for the mother I am getting worried about her, she ate a medium rat shortly after laying the clutch but has refused food since then and is quite thin and weak...

as being capable in Pythons, although rare, it has been rumored to have occured many times and confirmed to have happened recently with documented DNA testing now that is available

Here is one article on it and the data proof, this is a pdf file.

I would suggest that you contact a university like Kansas State, Small Animal Desk 785-532-5690 or another that does reptile studies and they would probably agree to do the testing for you in exchange for the scientific value information to them
Parthenogenesis reproduction in a python

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www.reptilerooms.com

This is exciting stuff! I do intend to pursue this further.

I am located somewhat near 2 state universitys (Wisconsin) and plan on contacting one or both if need be.

It's my understanding it can take 24 hours for the little one to completely emerge from the egg. For now "she" seems content to stay in the egg and has poked her head out a few times, how soon after she comes out should I transfer her to the aquarium?

Will she be ok in the incubator overnight should she emerge while we are sleeping?

I'm a nervous wreck....

There in lies the stress of breeding.
Being a nervous wreck is the initiation...hehe

...some of us just dont sleep for a few days...rofl.
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

May actually take more than 24 hours, and yes she'll be OK overnight in the incubator. I would think it would be fine to switch her to the new 'crib' as soon as she comes out and starts exploring the incubator.

Quig

Thanks sneakypete....Wow wadda day. *Mops sweat from brow*

LOL, take a deep breath, a valium, and take care of mom while yer waiting for the young one to come out.

Quig

i believe him

shes probably just weak from laying those eggs...

wouldnt you be weak aftyer laying a huge egg?

lol
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CKA

The mother ate today, she will be fine.

how old was the snake when you got it? was it just a baby? if so that wipes out the sperm retention theory. and if it was old enough to breed when you got it then can you contact the person that sold it to you and ask if it was ever with a male before you got it? and did you open the other eggs and see if there were dead snakes in there or were they infertile? can we see pick of the mom and the baby when it comes out? thanks and great story !!

JIM

An accurate age of the snake is not really known. The pet shop we got her from thought she was about a year old but had no firm date. She was about a foot long at the time if I remember correctly and she was in a cage with several other balls of the same size.

We have had her for @12 years now and in that time she has never seen another snake. From the glimpses I have gotten of the little one the markings on the head seem identical to the mother but it is hard to tell for sure until it emerges completely from the egg.

I do intend to document with photos and will share them here.

if it was only a foot long or so and was with others of the same size then it was to young and small to have breed! so it was not sperm retention.. so what about the other eggs? were they fertile or not?
I guess its like the fly guy on Jurassic park said.. Nature finds away !!! so will it be sterile? hhhmmmmm..

JIM

Of the 7 eggs 3 were slugs and 4 looked ok, 2 of them showed viens with the one that survived showing the most, the other 2 had no viens that I could see.

Once the little one has completely hatched and left the incubator I will cut open the others to see what lies inside.

Ain't she a cutie?

Parthenogenesis> I have found some articles on the phenomenon, seems like a viable explanation to me.

That is a good looking snake - doesn't look like mom tho hmmm.

Hope it is a girl - congrats!
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Tosha

"One of these days i am going to wake up..look around...and realize my place looks more like "Ace Venturas"s than my own." Coldthumb

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul "JP"
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 lizard rescued from vicious feline

>>That is a good looking snake - doesn't look like mom tho hmmm.
>>
>>-----
>>Tosha
>>

Egg stress can cause some changes in patterns - could be one possible explanation. The only way to know for certain is to have a DNA test done on the mother and hatchling and see how they compare.

With that abberant of a pattern my first thought was egg stress - but you just never know. Will be interesting if they are able to do tests on these two and find out what went on. My understanding is that in some but not all cases of parthenogenisis the offspring look exactly like the mother - but I don't think there has been much study with balls so we'll see.
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Tosha

"One of these days i am going to wake up..look around...and realize my place looks more like "Ace Venturas"s than my own." Coldthumb

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul "JP"
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 lizard rescued from vicious feline

doesnt look like mom,

there has to be another explanation for this other than parthenogenesis.

I await the real answer.

Markings appear different from the mother....

First thing was to check out the driftwood and then she took a dip in the water bowl.
I'm suprised at how big she is, must have been a tight fit inside that egg!

Congrats on the hatching. Just a quick question, little bit off topic though. What brand camera did you use, pics came out pretty good.....
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Rich
Sales@Dragoncharm.com
http://dragoncharm.com

My camera is just and old beat up Hewlett Packard, it works ok I guess.

She looks kinda funky in that pic, her skin was wrinked and messy from just coming out of the incubator. She looks sleek and beautiful now but is content to hide out in her shelter. I hope to get more pics when she ventures out.....

Congrats, very weird case , I would recommend setting her up in a humid cage until she sheds as her scales look wrinkled really bad in the pic, that is hard on a hatchling, I also keep them moist and let them shed out together , then I set them up seperately. I would never just set them up in a dry cage right out of the egg, if you've ever seen what baby imports look like that got to dry you would see what I mean! It takes 2-3 sheds for the scales to heal from that kind of exposure... Anthony McCain-McCain's Reptiles.

>>Remember me? My ball that I've had for 12 years laid a clutch of eggs even though she has never been with another snake the entire time I've had her!
>>

There is a fair amount of evidence including DNA results that parthenogenesis can happen, albeit rarely. Below are a few links on the subject.

http://www.herper.com/strange/parth.html
http://home.pcisys.net/~dlblanc/articles/Parthenogenesis.php
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12634818&dopt=Abstract
http://www.exn.ca/snakes/story.asp?id=1997101605

deg

It has been well documented in many species of snakes already. I personally know a snake keeper that has a luecistic cottonmouth that has reproduced 3 times this way and all the offspring are males. Survival of the species....

Mike King
MK Reptiles

That's why it's so important to make sure there are no small openings anywhere in the enclosure if you're keeping HOTS.

wow thats cool but creepy
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my addiction:
2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
1 amelenistic corn snake (mazy)

If your story is genuine you really need to take this snake to an expert on this subject. Your story is believable. This sort of thing does happen, I think I just read something within the last year or two it happened for the first time with a female Reticulated Python. This is how some lizard species reproduce for example a spieces of whiptail in the US. Your snake could be a very valuble specimen for some scientist to look at. You are very lucky and your snake may be able to make a large contibution to someones research.

Oh it's true alright. I do intend to call some local universitys for possible help in documenting this phenomenon.

Still kinda in a state of shock right now and looking forward to the little ones first feeding. Once that occurs I should be able to relax some and get busy with the research and possible DNA testing.

BS!!!

Yup!

BS!