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the late art meyers and i often had discussions about this...i saw this bruce means character on tv with his thoughts...who is this guy??..is he the guy from that tall timbers nature center??....any thing whose guys can tell me??...there's the "blotched" ,the "lined"..and the "pattern-less'...is this correct...if so how are they classified by the "experts".....will the true "goini" please stand up??????....i like dem frencefried taters wit mustard...............

Bruce Means is a professor at Florida State University and has studied this population of kingsnakes for years. He did use to work at Tall Timbers where I think he mainly focused on Eastern Diamondbacks but now he runs the Coastal Plains Institute. Back in 2001, he and Kenney Krysko published a paper on these kings. You can read it here:

http://www.calacademy.org/research/herpetology/ch/ch/2001/5/index.htm

Kenney Krysko has also recently written a paper where he names this population after Bruce but it has yet to be published as far as I know. I'm very interested in reading this myself as I would like to see exactly what they say are the true Apalachicola Kings. I would say the patternless and striped are the true forms but when it comes to the blotched phase it gets confusing. Especially since specimens that look like typical Easterns are called "goini" by many people. If you saw that episode on National Geographic where Bruce is looking for the Apalachicola Kingsnake, at the end he finds one in his trap. That specimen was found by Pierson Hill and I and it was a speckled, blotched phase that Bruce said was an Apalachicola King. This population is very confusing to many as it is surrounded by Eastern Kings and naturally intergrades with them producing all kinds of pattern variations. On top of that, when two lightly patterned, blotched specimens are bred together, many times you get patternless and striped offspring. So it appears that patternless, striped, and light, blotched specimens are your true "goini"...the rest must be intergrades.
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My signature is pure...the purest of them all.

Just curious--was the snake caught previously by you and then later recaught in the trap, or was it caught and planted in the trap, i.e., staged? Wish I saw the special, but I don't got no cable.

The snake was caught by Pierson and I and Bruce used it in his show. He had the trap set out hoping to find one but staged ours for the show.
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My signature is pure...the purest of them all.

The snake was caught by Pierson and I and Bruce used it in his show. He had the trap set out hoping to find one but staged ours for the show.>>

Staged National Geographic shows?? UGH!! Guess I'm naive,and "reality" TV hits everywhere.

God forbid you have a show without finding anything....
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Lloyd Heilbrunn

Palm Beach Gardens, Fl.

Good question.
I also had many conversations with Art who was a really good guy.
But the 'true goini', from what I understood twenty years ago, was an animal that was either patternless or lineated (striped) as an adult. Back then, Means said that those patternless animals were being swamped genetically by the surrounding eastern kings. That is why the blotched form appears all around a small area within the ANF where the patternless and lineated kings had been found. That population of patternless kings is what is left of what was once the Apalachicola Lowland king.
But I am not sure what the belief is now.
However regarding Bruce Means...well, he came off as a major flake in that documentary. His plan to 're-seed' the ANF with hatchlings bought from a dealer sounded profoundly stupid to me.

I have said that (about the "re-seeding" many times... I hoped that the "sentiment" didn't affect too many people with similar (albeit well meaning) ideas of giving mother nature a hand, so to speak.
I can't imagine the results..
:Mark

I know, I am old and know nothing but I did hunt there for a few years long before people exsisted. Me and my old donkey cart.

Actually, a population located between or intermediate between two other Types of subspecies, should not be considered a subspecies. It in itself is an intergrade. Then your saying the intergrades have intergrades? Holy Moly! I think thats suppose to be, there are different degrees of intergration, which is normal.

I know, I know, the books say this and that. But please understand a basic rule of taxonomy is that color and pattern are too fast moving(changing) to be considered as a lone taxonomic tool. That is, there must be other differences then color and or pattern. And yes I understand, someone forgot to go by or use the rules. Sorry but this happens all the time.

Please understand, its very possible, your understanding may be based on others mistakes.

Now consider, are "goini" physically, structurally, or different in scalation????? if not, why are they called anything other then a pattern morph, thats so very common in kingsnakes.

It seems to me, as a bystander, you fellas are fighting over a question that does not exsist. That is, there is no answer.

About your question, as answered already, a goini is a snake with a different pattern then the others, striped or patternless. As mentioned, Blotched kings occur in other areas. But wait, according to this old man and his books, a Blotched king is a goini?????????? Hence their common name, Blotched king.

The more and more you go in circles, the dizzier you get. FR

those are good points.

As for 'goini' being the blotched king that is also true from a taxonomic standpoint since the blotched form was named 'goini'.
What Bruce Means was originally saying though was that the really unique kingsnake from that area was the patternless morph. These were mixing with eastern kings and producing the blotched form.
So maybe this is what Kenney Krysko would be naming 'meansi', which to me, makes sense.
But I still believe that they are all just color morphs of the same animal.

Read Alan Tennant's book Snakes of Florida pg. 197 he states the kingsnakes from the apalachicola basin that are patternless, striped and blotched are nothing more than variations of the eastern, too bad old schoolers can't deal with it but that's the way it is.

Subspieces or color morph I still think they are pretty. What you call them won't change that for me. I am just gonna need to add one more word on when I talk about them. "Goini Phase"

Hey guess what most of us are not schooled enough to be biologist so our opinions don't matter outside this forum. I guess some of us, myself included, seem to forget that. Can't we just have fun.

At the end of the day I will still keep them and enjoy them everytime I interact with them. Lets not forget the Brooks Kings. Didn't Krysko say they where not anything more than a color morph but then says that the Goini are a sub. Whatever!!! who is buying or selling their animals based on that?? The only thing that bothers me about all this is Krysko gets to go herping and call it work while I am sitting inside. I need to go to school so I can rename something.
Later Jason

I usually try to avoid posting on these forums but I'm going to have to jump in and clear up some of the misconceptions perpetuated here. Most of these myths are founded on a gross misunderstanding of basic population dynamics and hopefully this will clear things up a bit.

The notion that 'patternless' or 'striped' Apalachicola Kingsnakes are relict morphs of a now non-existant population of unique kings bears some merit. However, subscribing to this theory automatically negates the possibility that the extant population is a geographically defined color variant (aka subspecies). So any current attempts at renaming/redefining the population are in error. Currently, individuals with dark blotches can be found over the entire known range of the Apalachicola Kingsnake, although with different frequencies in different locales.

Here is a 3-foot DOR male found by Chris Raden and me in the geographical dead center of Apalachicola Kings' range earlier this summer.

This demonstrates that either: 1) Gene flow from getula getula has infiltrated the center of Apalachicola Kingsnakes' range, relegating the entire population to an 'intergrade' status, between that of a currently non-existant subspecies and Eastern Kings. 2) Blotched individuals have always been part of the array of Apalachicola Kings' phenotypes. I believe this to be the case. It also seems that the blotched phenotype is becoming more prevalent as getula getula genetic influence permeates into the lower Apalachicola River valley.

So what does this all mean? You could certainly call the Apalachicola Kingsnakes a 'pattern variant' of the Eastern Kingsnake constrained by geography. However, that is what a subspecies is anyways.

So, you could give the current population subspecific status, which has already been done by Neill and Allen in 1949 ("goini" ). Yes, they based their description on blotched animals from the western periphery of the Apalachicola Kingsnakes' range but they were still part of the population in question.

You could also redefine the subspecies in order to incorporate the patternless and striped phenotypes. Traditionally, this would simply involve a new description under the umbrella of the old name "goini". Unfortunately, it seems that arrogance is clouding good science in the attempt to rename the population "meansi".

The bottom line here is that any attempt at designating the current population of kingsnakes in the lowlands of the Apalachicola River valley as something distinct is going to be fraught with controversey. There are so many shades of gray involved that our rigid and artificial taxonomic system is practically useless.

Got it?
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Pierson Hill

You summed it all up so that even my science ignorant brain could understand it
I pretty much agree with your take on this issue.

....Damn! Why couldn't we have gotten there a little earlier on that gorgeous snake. If only your eagle eyes hadn't spotted that flea sized pygmy that we stopped to photograph (LOL).
Chris

you are probably more right than all of us.

I am also guilty of referring to the patternless and striped animals as 'goini' or true goini which is of course, incorrect. I keep confusing the relict population (whatever it may or may not be--or even if it ever existed) by using that name. I actually know better too.
Goini, if it is ever used, should only be used when referring to what they were originally described as which is the blotch form of that kingsnake.
However, I do stand by more original feeling that whatever they are, the kings from that region are unique and should be preserved as best as can be.

I agree with your observations completely. Phil

Currently, individuals with dark blotches can be found over the entire known range of the Apalachicola Kingsnake, although with different frequencies in different locales.

Keep in mind Pierson, we've only seen/found a handful of specimens ourselves and we've yet to find one in the area where most of the patternless/striped forms came from. The dor you and Chris found was south of where we found the light, blotched form and I would imagine if we find specimens north of that area, we may just come across even lighter specimens...possibly patternless or striped.

I can't recall the last time someone found a patternless/striped form but I don't think they are completely gone. I think we need to focus on certain areas and see what we can find before we say dark blotched forms are found in the entire range. I agree the Apalachicola's range is not what it used to be but I don't think Easterns have completely swamped the whole range yet. Let's find some more and see what we come up with!

>>Keep in mind Pierson, we've only seen/found a handful of specimens ourselves and we've yet to find one in the area where most of the patternless/striped forms came from. The dor you and Chris found was south of where we found the light, blotched form and I would imagine if we find specimens north of that area, we may just come across even lighter specimens...possibly patternless or striped.

Agreed! However, based on published data, I would expect snakes from that area to be significantly lighter and significantly less blotched in general. The DOR snake may be a fluke but it is oddly remiscent of other "intergrade" specimens you and I have seen from further into getula getula range.

>>I can't recall the last time someone found a patternless/striped form but I don't think they are completely gone. I think we need to focus on certain areas and see what we can find before we say dark blotched forms are found in the entire range.

My intended meaning wasn't that there are only blotched forms left in the wild, but that phenotype is apparent everywhere within the range. Striped and patternless animals may still pop up on occasion but it's no doubt they're becoming less common.

I agree the Apalachicola's range is not what it used to be but I don't think Easterns have completely swamped the whole range yet. Let's find some more and see what we come up with!

Keep the hope alive!
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Pierson Hill

Hey did you get those emails I sent to you?

I did, thanks!

Very interesting maneuvering they're doing. They shouldn't have too much trouble convincing the CNAH but I'd be interested to see if the Crothers list accepts it.
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Pierson Hill

There is/was a sand road south of Sumatra and east of the Hwy that was known as the "patternless " road by collectors back in the 70's and 80's according to conversations I had with the late Art Meyers. He showed it to me one day when he was down in the forest.He stated that several had been found there , but years before I was down there hunting them. I had bought several wild caughts from him in the very early 90's. None were patternless/striped . I did aquire a blotched gravid female from him in '91 or '92 and hatched all blotched babies. She came from the west side of the river and south of Wewehitchka (sp?). Sean , you have succeded were many other's failed , me included. Finding a king down there is an extreme challenge, but how's about rounding up a few mole kings from down there ....hahaha.... now thats a damn challenge ! I saw and purchased several from Art that were unreal. Good luck and keep us posted on your finds.

Is that the wide, sandy road that dead ends at the river? I've heard about people finding them over there back then. I don't think I've ever seen a snake on that road. What happened to the wild caughts you purchased from Art?

Sean,

It used to be a loop road , it goes east and then loops back around and comes out back on the Hwy. The snakes I got from Art were used in many breeding projects. They have since been dispersed years ago.I sold them to other hobbyists and breeders. Kenny and his dad bought several F1 babies from me. Krysko used several of the kings for scale counts etc., on both of his papers. I was always sending him sheds and whatnot too. I used to breed a bunch of "goini" and "brooksi" back in the early 90's.

I like the Tennant version better than your windbag story Mr.Hill,lol, sorry but you did'nt clear up anything that was'nt already cleared up, and why should a L.g.g. variation be called meansi anyway?

>>I like the Tennant version better than your windbag story Mr.Hill,lol, sorry but you did'nt clear up anything that was'nt already cleared up,

I have Tennant's book and I have read his description of the kingsnakes. His book is a FIELD GUIDE, not a peer reviewed systematics paper. No offense to Mr. Tennant, but his account was pretty limited in scope and probably based on his (or someone else's) opinion of what the Apalachicola Kingsnakes are. Much like your opinion, it wasn't based on the actual facts.

and why should a L.g.g. variation be called meansi anyway?

I don't understand why you're asking this question. Reread my post.
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Pierson Hill

Pierson,
Do you mean to tell me that you don't recognize Tennant as the leading authority on Appalachicola kings???
Man you science types are all the same. By the way, my new field guide says that contortrix range goes all the way down to Key West, FL. Do you think this is a credible field guide or are you gonna tell me you don't believe everything you read in this one either?

Obviously I'm just poking fun at the notion that all research or independant thought should stop because it says so in a field guide. I like Tennant's book just fine for what it is.

By the way Jetzen, Tennant's field guide was a collaboration with Kenny Krysko (and Kenny is actually responsible for all the range maps)?

Chris

Do you mean to tell me that you don't recognize Tennant as the leading authority on Appalachicola kings???

I thought he was. In his field guide, there's a patternless king labeled as a Florida King. And here I was thinking the patternless forms were only found in a small area in the panahandle but now I know they're found all the way to South Florida. Geez, why have I been spending all this time in the ANF?

one Sean???? rdb

BTW, I missed you and Carl on your trip up here recently. If you ever make your way up here again, I would enjoy getting out in the field with you.

Whatever, anyway the apalachicola lowland kingsnake is nothing more than a eastern, not "goini", you can call it what you want but the truth will come out like always. What happened to "sticticeps" is going to happen to "goini" weather you or anyone else likes it or not.
And BTW don't forget what happened to "brooksi" and "yumensis".
Times change and so do classifications,right?

thpppppt
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Pierson Hill

lol! just because we disagree dos'nt mean i don't respect your knowledge. You should visit the forum more often.

good points,they say the only constant is change-people seem to want these taxonomic labels to be set in stone....check any book older than say,40 years....and just notice all the changes in scientific names,(or of course vernacular names)....btw that pic should be captioned 'jesus ,won't this motha-fo-ya get that godam camera out of my face!!?

Frankly, I wouldn't take it to be anything more than a so-so field guide. It is the only Florida herp book that I have ever found myself saying "Oh, that is a bunch of crap!" out loud to while reading.
Some of what he writes is just plain wrong from my experiences.

ever seen the argument. Arrogance and cronyism has certainly
played a part in the recent non-studies. Thanx for the post. Dick

n/m