Reptile & Amphibian Forums

heres some pics and info. lets here some comments then I will post some guesses from before and the answers to them. still waiting for the right ID and will probably never know ! thanks.

JIM

Ok, here’s the story! In 1993 a friend of mine was removing an old palm tree that was more of a large bush, in San Clamenta California. When they pulled the tree out, about 4 or 5 of these snakes took off in all directions, but he grabbed one and took it home. Not knowing much about snakes but knowing I have been breeding them for several years he called me up and told me the story and that he thought it was probably a California king snake. Witch by the description sounded likely. After seeing it I thought it was some kind of indigo or cribo. So I took it to show a friend that specializes in drymarchons (indigos and so on) and to our surprise he could not identify it either! Next I took the snake to the professor of herpetology at San Diego State University and after counting scales and doing every thing he could to identify it he couldn’t. So I took it to one of the San Diego reptile shows and showed it to several breeders including Robert Applegate and many others and stumped them all. What else could I do at this point? This snake did not try to bite and was as calm as holding a boa! He ate small dead rats without constricting. I went back to were it was found to look for the others but I never found any. Now the sad part. After having the snake for a few months I had to leave the snake with a friend that breed pythons for a short time while I was moving. My friend, (whom will remain nameless for his protection) let his snake room get to hot and cooked this snake and several others. I have been talking with a few reputable reptile vets that are showing interest in this snake and I have been thinking of going back to were this snake was found with a few people that would like to go help me find some of the ones that got away or there offspring. It is an ideal place that they could live in a small area forever. Please feel free to let me know if you think you can help identify this snake or if you would like to help find the others. These pictures are not the best but a least I have some. I can email more to people that can help. Thanks.

JIM F MCDONALD

>>heres some pics and info. lets here some comments then I will post some guesses from before and the answers to them. still waiting for the right ID and will probably never know ! thanks.
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>> JIM
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RATS
1.0 Corn snake "Warpath" (KY locale)
0.0.1 Corn snake (KY locale)
1.0 Black rat snake "Havok" (KY locale)
1.1 Black rat snakes "Reaper and Mystique" (MO locale)
1.0 Albino Black rat snake "Malakai" (Dwight Good stock)
1.0 Everglades rat snake "Deadpool" (Dwight Good stock)
0.1 Greenish rat snake "Rogue" (Dwight Good stock)
0.0.1 Great plains rat snake (TX locale)
1.0 Grey rat snake "Punisher" (White oak phase)(Dwight Good stock)

Good luck and Happy Herping
Brian

Jim,

I still can't decide on that one.

Obviously the locality is irrelevant as it was not native to CA. I still think it looks like a Lioheterodon although I can't rule out some odd species of Alsophis.
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, TX

If you look closely you can see that his pictures are distorted and make the snake look thicker then it actually is. Compare his pictures to the one at the right on this link.

http://www.werc.usgs.gov/fieldguide/mafu.htm
Link

I do see were this could look a bit like that snake but, first off the pictures were taken with a old camera and when I had them put on a disc I then had to rise them to put them on this forum. so Im not trying to miss lead ! next, this snake was a bit thicker then the diameter of a quarter and was very calm(never tried to bite) and would eat medium size dead rats right out of my hand. it also had a white belly from its nose almost to its tail. all the racers I've known of are not calm, much thinner, always bite, and dont eat rats. I also took this snake and showed it while it was alive to the professor of herpetology at SanDiego State University and he could not tell what it was even by doing scale counts, and I think he would know if it were a racer from that area. it was also shown to Robert Applegate and lots of other top breeders and none of them could ID it as well. I would love solve this mystery but I think it will never happen unless another one is found. I am willing to give anyone that wants it, all the info and location to go find more. I have talked to some local old timers that say they see that snake right in the area were this one was found. I just dont have the time or man power to put in the time to search for it. email me and or call me and I will tell you or take you to were this one (witch was the only one caught of 4 to 5 that were seen at the time this one was caught. so there are more. thanks.

JIM 951-471-0618

Since you use the term "racer", I'm thinking Coluber. Anyway, Masticophis flagellum is a coacwhip and I've found coachwhips that would didn't bite (more that do bite, however) and take thawed mice the same day as they are caught. I don't keep them, but I photograph them and give them a meal for their troubles before I release them.

This snake is highly variable in color, depending upon the population. I've no doubt that you have found a unique population of Masticophis, I hope that they all share the same temperment and that you can find some more. I too have had coachwhips that wouldn't bite, it's not an impossibility. I am not saying that you are try to deceive us, just that the second photo is distorted slightly and makes the snake wider then it is, that is throwing people off. The first one more accurately shows the size of the snake and marking and length correspond perfectly to this coachwhip.

The problem with scale counts is that there is a range, many times such a process in inconclusive. Sometimes the count is toward the high end of the range or the low end or overlaps with other species making it difficult to know for sure.

Light bars on the side of unusual Masticophis like the one you link to--> vertical.

Light bars on the side of this snake--> tilted 45-degrees counter-clockwise of vertical.

Sure, coloration is variable in Masticophis. Basic pattern geometry isn't. What the pictured snake is isn't clear, but it's not Masticophis. This kind of tilted barring occurs in a few genera of tropical US colubrids, though. The two of those most likely to end up in captivity are Drymarchon (e.g., Drymarchon melanurus rubidus (often considered a subspecies of Drymarchon corais)) & Spilotes. Coloration would be unusual for either (at least so far as I know), but the patterning is dead on and general body form as well.

Patrick Alexander

I don't know.

Also looks a lot like a Madagasgar hognose...except for the head.