Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This post is just to tell of my experience with venomous snakes so far, mainly to be considered by those thinking of getting hots, and to hear what others have to say...

Just a couple of months ago, I got that first idea in my head that I wanted to keep venomous snakes. Some of you may remember my posts.

I am in Australia, and previously have kept skinks and dragons, before keeping 2 carpet pythons and 2 diamond pythons for 8 months.

I first began by reading everything i could possibly find online - and posting in these forums.

Then, I followed by emailing five or six people who are recognised as experienced venomous snake keepers who are proximate to me, asking for their advice. Before I knew it, a few of them were offering some hands on experience (and don't be shy to ask for it- if you're asking for handling experience, that shows your head's screwed on right)

I learnt a hell of a lot and a lot of misconceptions of mine were set aside. First, just because a snake is venomous doesn't mean it will bite you at any given opportunity (this regards some species, and not all). Second, the keeping of venomous snakes is over-complicated by many. Third, decades of experience with other snakes will in no way prepare a person for a hot. They move differently, they behave differently, they think differently - they are different in so many ways. Don't compare apples to oranges.

All it takes is good common sense, a knowledge of the snake's capacity, and a high level of respect for the snake itself, and what is could do to you. (and, of course, general husbandry info, easily pertainable from whoever you find to show you how).

So, if you want to do it, then do it. Don't let anybody tell you that you're not ready if you honestly believe you are. Just make sure that you make a real effort to make yourself ready before making a purchase. No harm can come from spending a few hours with vens every couple of weeks, under the watch of a learned eye - even if you've never kept snakes before - until you're ready for the day you buy your first hot.

Just remember, at the end of the day, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. You are, at the end of the day, risking your life and the lives of others. The snakes, at the end of the day, are just as capable of biting you. But then again, it's no more risky than, like said a few posts earlier, driving a car.

If you choose to go down the same path as me, make sure it is out of passion for the hobby, and not for the glamour of keeping vens. I'll be getting my first of many elapids over the next couple of weeks - and I can't wait.

With that said, there are always exceptions to every rule. And there are also many other things to consider (money, general husbandry, ability to provide due care and security, opinions of those close to you, licencing restrictions, etc)

Well, I hope this helps change some people's minds about getting in to hots (no, this isn't my plea to all to go out and buy a ven, but merely my warning to those that some are too quick to tell people that they shouldn't keep hots. Noted though, in some cases, it is obviously necessary) and even ever-so-slightly broadens the opinions of others.

Penultimately, all opinions should be considered. If someone tells you that you're not ready, ask yourself why they are saying it. But if you truly feel you are ready, then do it.

And finally, the end of my rantingly raving post - a thanks to all those who have helped me along my way. I appreciate it (you know who you are).

Cheers,
Aaron.
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Happy Herping

for those that want to keep venomous, do it NOW ! Because of the ongoing impending restrictions and bans. You might be legal now and not later. On if someone is ready to keep or not, hard to say other than hands on. I really don't know if I was ready 40 years ago but did it and learned some stuff on the way of course. Probably some of the most important aspects to the keeping is cage requirements of non-escaping of hots, tools and just basically know what one is in for if tagged. I COULD say something about the legality of keeping hots of areas but then it would open cans of worms about gun ownership in places like NY and such and other unlawful things. You will get un-responsible keepers of hots like un-responsible dog and other animal/pet keepers. There is basically no difference in my mind. Try to compare the ownership of hots to pit bull and related breeds of dog/bites/attacks. Us venomous keepers are few compared to these breeds of dogs in country whether these dogs are outlawed or not ( mixes of these dog breeds included ).
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I may be old , cantankerous, crabby, and cynical, but......

There have only been a couple of people that I've discouraged from keeping hots:

One was 17, lived in the boonies (meaning nowhere near a hospital), introduced himself by posting a picture of himself free-handling a timber tattlesnake and stated that he didn't really care if he died handling snakes. It turns out that he managed to survive somehow and got enough of the testosterone out of his system to take some of the truckloads of advice he got seriously and seems to be doing pretty well now.

The other introduced himself by saying he had been keeping anacondas for a few years, had his mind dead-set on having an inland taipan as a first hot and would not consider keeping other, lesser hots first...

Nice that the local Herpers have been a great assistance with your training. I re-read many of those earlier threads and I stand corrected. It seems the RBBS is a better first snake than a DA. Well I have a DA, so would someone send me a RBBS please! One of my favorite Aussy Snakes

What are you getting as your first Hot? Are you going with the RBBS

Best of luck!

Cheers!

Al
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"Fighting on the forums is like competing in the Special Olympics, even if you win, you're still retarded."

DH June 2005

I will either go for a pair of redbellied black snakes (P. porphyriacus) or Collett's snakes (P. colletti). They are both beautiful snakes, with great temperaments (once again, there are always exceptions though).

AV is readily available throughout Victoria, Australia. It is held by many hospitals, and, best of all, it's free. Not that this is any reason to go out and buy a hot (just because of AV). There is always the possibility of death. There is always a possibility of losing limbs, and of course, scarring, increased resistancy to AV, anaphylaxis, the list goes on.

Though, I am having some troubles getting hold of any critters.
Aaron.

Quote:

"if someone tells you that you are not ready, ask yourself why they are saying it. But if you truly feel you are ready, then do it."

This is wrong....

First Why would they say it? look at their credentials.

Second, it implies that someone might have an agenda to keep people from keeping hots (besides fish and game...etc...). Personally I know of no experienced keepers that feel that way.

But, we all know that there is no justification for making it sound easy. This is DANGEROUS. Forget that and you will quickly learn the hard way.

Third, Who are you to judge when you are ready? Sorry, but I have answered dozens of Emails and talked to as many who were convinced they were ready...that I would have serious doubts about leaving a rat snake under their care.

An inexperienced keeper is the worst judge of his abilities. Its when people make remarks that are foolish..that is when the warning flag goes up. And that advice is exactly that.

Much of what you said is correct. However (without trying to flame) IMHO there seems to be an ego issue here. That's a bad mix with venemous.

When someone qualified says you are ready, then do it.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

and again, not to flame or belittle, but it was not more than a few weeks back you first posted saying that you were "going to be" getting into hots...I don't know how people go about it in the land down under, but most experienced, qualified hot keepers here in the States would probably think that a few weeks of experience with hots is definitely not enough to begin keeping them in your home.

But you are a grown man (I'm assuming at least) and you will do what you do in the end. My simplest (and shortest ) bit of advice would be to not jump into this too early, take your time, and let yourself learn more about them. You've barely kept 4 or so snakes period, and none of those match elapids in terms of agility, physiology, behavior, or sheer lethality. If you REALLY want to jump head first into hots (not the brightest thing to do), consider getting a rear-fanged colubrid, of which you have numerous choices in Australia.

Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth (2 cents, lol )

Yeah Psilocybe, personally I have a problem with someone with ZERO unsupervised venemous experience giving advice.

Aaron: Your inexperience is clearly indicted by your own words.

"the keeping of venomous snakes is over complicated by many."

How do you know? Do you have the experience to judge? To fill in the blank...I have 35 years of keeping hots as an amatuer and as a former Zookeeper.

"Decades of experience with other snakes will in no way prepare a person for a hot."

Decades of experience will teach you proper keeping protocols and will give you the skills necessary to spot problems (hopefully) before they become serious. A smart keeper would practice the use of tongs and hooks on non venemous. They might not move the same but it will teach you to use the equipment properly.

"...my warning to some that are too quick to tell people they shouldn't keep hots...."

Too quick...Aaron?

When are we supposed to comment or advise? It is my recollection that you asked the advice of us, so for you to belittle people with decades of experience is a bit RUDE.

All we have to go on is what you say...If you don't seem ready, why should we tell you to go ahead?

And that is the point. An inexperienced keeper is a lousy judge of his abilities.

Aaron, With all due polietness....Sit down and listen to people who know what they are doing BEFORE giving advice on something you know damned little about.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I think Aaron made some good points but some were so preposterous that I just couldn't bite my lip any longer. First and foremost, there is no subsitute for experience; even if with non venomous herps. If you learn proper handling techniques with tongs/hooks/etc with harmless snakes, eventually, you COULD (and I emphasize COULD over CAN) be ready for a venomous herp but that depends on MANY variables. To say that some of us overcomplicate the keeping of venomous species is absolutely ridiculous. To approach the keeping of venomous snakes with a simple mind will end in death; period. There are FAR MORE things you have to consider when working with venomous herps that you can get away with harmless species. My staff, who begin working with hots, have to first complete an extensive 3-day workshop that only comes after they have worked under my wing for at least 6 years (with boas, pythons, various colubrids, monitors, crocs, etc.). They have to PROVE their worthiness to work with hots and that only comes from demonstrated expertise over the long haul. After they complete the workshop, they will then spend another 100 hours shadowing me and learning proper techniques. During this time, they slowly develop certain skills and assist me with various things under my watchful eye. After many months, they will then get their FIRST hot to take care of; usually a pygmy rattler, 'sauga, banded rock or something along those lines. They will learn everything they can from that one snake before being given additional responsibilities. There is NEVER a rush to acquire or work with additional animals with my staff; they know what they are in for.

When I see rookies giving advice, particularly bad advice, I really get upset because it shows that they are probably not ready to take on this privilege (and it is a privilege to work with venomous reptiles). Now, I don't doubt the original post's intentions or passion; that is quite evident and he should be commended but he also needs to respect the value of hard work, time, commitment and teh advice being given by many experienced people on this forum. I for one would NEVER recommend that someone start off by owning a venomous herp; NEVER. But, I am going to shut up as I have much more to say but will hold my tongue; I sure hope you heed the advice being given here and hope that you enjoy your hobby safely and learn teh ropes from the people who are teaching you.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>Yeah Psilocybe, personally I have a problem with someone with ZERO unsupervised venemous experience giving advice.
>>
>>Aaron: Your inexperience is clearly indicted by your own words.
>>
>>"the keeping of venomous snakes is over complicated by many."
>>
>>How do you know? Do you have the experience to judge? To fill in the blank...I have 35 years of keeping hots as an amatuer and as a former Zookeeper.
>>
>>"Decades of experience with other snakes will in no way prepare a person for a hot."
>>
>>Decades of experience will teach you proper keeping protocols and will give you the skills necessary to spot problems (hopefully) before they become serious. A smart keeper would practice the use of tongs and hooks on non venemous. They might not move the same but it will teach you to use the equipment properly.
>>
>>"...my warning to some that are too quick to tell people they shouldn't keep hots...."
>>
>>Too quick...Aaron?
>>
>>When are we supposed to comment or advise? It is my recollection that you asked the advice of us, so for you to belittle people with decades of experience is a bit RUDE.
>>
>>All we have to go on is what you say...If you don't seem ready, why should we tell you to go ahead?
>>
>>And that is the point. An inexperienced keeper is a lousy judge of his abilities.
>>
>>Aaron, With all due polietness....Sit down and listen to people who know what they are doing BEFORE giving advice on something you know damned little about.
>>
>>Frank
>>-----
>>"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

It is like knowing a train wreck is going to happen and there is no way to stop it. I have worked around people who have handled 'hots' for years. I have seen a couple of them bit and each time it did not matter if they screwed up or if they did everything by the book and something else went wrong, either way a bite is a bite. And along those same lines, it does not matter to people out side of the herp community what care was taken or what went wrong, it is going to affect all keepers.

For those who have taken great care and preperations in their ownership of 'hots', I can't imagine how frustrating it is to know that despite your personal care, the lack of care from others still will end up affecting you in some way!
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

NP
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank,

I will say this "ego" is NOT an issue here.

There are alot of people in the venomous reptile community that seem to try and make out that you must be an "expert" to keep venomous snakes responsibly. This IMHO is certainly not the case, usually the people who perpetuate the myth that keeping hots is extremely dangerous and very difficult is by other venomous keepers themselves and this in turn feeds their own ego (Them being one of the so-called elite).

I believe common sense is much more important to have.

Common sense is to keep other reptiles first, read literature, seek out hands on experience and start with a good first hot.

Aaron has common sense, alot of enthusiasim and lots of questions.

So, what is a good first hot? I ask you what makes a good first hot? I think that there are a number of factors: size, availability, venom toxicity/yield, antivenom availability, general/typical behavior of the species.

So what fits the mould....well that depends, generally I recommend RBB's (Pseudechis porphyriacus) or Collett's (Pseudechis colletti) here in Australia.

Regards,

Scott Eipper

Also:

I thought that I should also say that I don't agree with all comments made by Aaron in his original post

Scott

Uh....Scott...All due respect, BUT....

You said...

"There are a lot of people in the venemous community who seem to try and make out that you must be an "Expert" to keep venemous snakes responsibly. This IMHO is certainly not the case, usually the people who perpetuate the myth that keeping hots is extremely dangerous and very difficult is by other venemous keepers themselves and this in turn feeds on their own ego (Them being the so called elite)."

Is as dumb a statement as I have ever seen here. Those of us with the expertise that you slam here, post because we have a vested interest in keeping people who make statements (like you just did) alive. If you get bit it supplies more fuel to the ant-snake crowd (I'm not that altruistic).

Only a fool would say being an expert is not necessary. "Common sense" Scott, is partially the capacity to take good advice and apply it sensibly. Your above statement shows a sad lack of it.

My "common sense" keeps me from working with certain hots that I feel my skills (I'm not so limber anymore) are not up to or that I feel might endanger my family or niebors. Thus I do not keep Cobras, Mambas, Brown snakes etc...Though I like them.

Ego....is when you think you have all the answers and act accordingly. Like someone with little or no experience telling everyone he can handle snakes that kill...or making a statement like the one above.

35 years ago I was a rank beginner. Fortunately I had "Experts" like Greg Longhurst, Fred Grunwald and Ron Dupont to guide me through my awkward early efforts till I learned. Thanks to those gentlemen, I still have NEVER had a serious bite (though plenty from rearfangs that were mild enough to ignore). By the way, it was those rearfangs that taught me what I could or could not safely do with the others. That is why I and others said "start with the mild ones".

Scott, an Expert is not an "elitest" to anyone except a wannabe. An expert is someone who managed to do this for a long time and still be alive to give that advice.

At this momment Aaron is showing more sense than you are.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank,

Regarding the first point - I think you have misconstrued scott's words in a way not intended by him. He may have meant that it doesn't take years upon years of keeping non-vens before keeping vens. Afterall, just because a person keeps snakes for years doesn't mean they're doing it right, does it? It also doesn't guarantee that they will learn skills well.

And tell me, what does make keeping hots extremely dangerous? Sure, it could kill you. So could so many other things. Tell me, do you know anybody who smokes? If so, do you belittle them? If done properly, no harm comes to anybody. I don't think anybody is talking about taipans here - we are dealing specifically with 'starter snakes'. You drive a car right? How likely is it that a semitrailer hit you? I certainly wouldn't rule it out. Yet, in many places, a person is allowed to drive a car after 6 months of supervised learning. Not 30 years.

I don't think it's necessary to call somebody a 'fool'. And this is the very reason for my original post. You judge somebody without knowing them. You think that because you have read 300 words they've written and 35 years experience under your belt that you can judge them as a person? I think not. The same applies for your inappropriate attacks at Scott's supposed lack of common sense.

I never stated that I can handle a snakes that kill. And i never encouraged anybody to go out half-cocked and buy a ven. I am, for your information, starting with the 'mild ones'. In Austrlia, we don't have a whole lot of options (that are suitable to prepare for elapids). A redbellied black, or collett's, as Scott suggested, are considered mild. They are the two recommended by so many experts in australia. In some states, it is even a requirement that they are the first two kept before any other.

Scott never said that all experts are elitists. But the fact is, some are. I have read posts time and time again that tell people to go away and play with their corns. Some, are granted. Some, are in no way well supported. That is why some people seem to encourage an authoritarian stance. It is those that encourage a monopoly over the status of keeping a ven.

Fortunately, I too have various 'experts' around me who are willing to devote their time and efforts to advise and help me. Thanks to all those on KS that offered advice and appropriate critique of my earlier of posts. It is posts like those that are helpful - and don't scare off newbies to vens. It is, however, rudeness and namecalling that does scare newbies. I would have thought 35 years long enough to learn good manners.

Thank you, and good day.

I also wish to express that the above post is my opinion, and mine solely.

With all due respect Aaron. try reading Scott's post again. So far it seems that those who do have the experience read it like I did.

The "extreme danger" is the sense of invulnerability that comes from being to cocky and self assured. one mistake at the wrong time and you will learn how extremely dangerous these things can be.

Hostile is not the intent. Correcting some very dangerous mis-conceptions is.....

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank,

For starters, this will not turn into a flame war or pi**ing match. I as a rule generally agree with most of your past comments/opinions.

"There are a lot of people in the venemous community who seem to try and make out that you must be an "Expert" to keep venemous snakes responsibly. This IMHO is certainly not the case, usually the people who perpetuate the myth that keeping hots is extremely dangerous and very difficult is by other venemous keepers themselves and this in turn feeds on their own ego (Them being the so called elite)."

The above statement has been mis-understood..what I meant was: It is usually the people who are most vocal about what snakes you should keep and how you keep them generally are so negative to the prospective keeper that they end up going it alone...this is when problems occur/newspapers called and the hobby gets slammed... when the person does it anyway and without constructive advice.

I like to think that this is not the case in general "mentor" types frequenting the forums, that these people understand how someone could want to keep hot snakes and try to assist in any way possible.

The elitist type of keepers (that also stop in from time to time) are the problem in which I refer....the so called experts that do try to make out that keeping venomous snakes is only for a certain few (in other words elite) and that is (keeping venomous snakes) only attainable after so many years of training etc etc ...

I don't believe this is the case.

I don't believe I am a fool, I am willing to take on constructive advice and I am well aware of what common sense is. I am not a "newbie" or "rookie" and don't like being spoken too as such.

"My "common sense" keeps me from working with certain hots that I feel my skills (I'm not so limber anymore) are not up to or that I feel might endanger my family or niebors. Thus I do not keep Cobras, Mambas, Brown snakes etc...Though I like them."

Fair enough knowing your own limits is important.

Ego....is when you think you have all the answers and act accordingly. Like someone with little or no experience telling everyone he can handle snakes that kill...or making a statement like the one above.

I believe I answered this above

35 years ago I was a rank beginner. Fortunately I had "Experts" like Greg Longhurst, Fred Grunwald and Ron Dupont to guide me through my awkward early efforts till I learned. Thanks to those gentlemen, I still have NEVER had a serious bite (though plenty from rearfangs that were mild enough to ignore). By the way, it was those rearfangs that taught me what I could or could not safely do with the others. That is why I and others said "start with the mild ones".

The one species of rear fang that you can keep in Australia, (Brown Tree Snakes, Boiga irregularis) is not always easy to get a hold of (Buy) so as I have said I recommend 2 species of Pseudechis which are in my mind better than many other elapids that are about.

Regards,
Scott Eipper.

Scott,

With all due respect...in light of your 'modifications' of your previous statement I would suggest you take care to clarify your statements before posting. As written it was inflamitory and (giving the benefit of the doubt) easily interpreted differently than you meant.

I for one know of no "elitist" venemous keepers such as you describe. I do on occasion see comments that in fact imply the opposite.

When presenting the negative, it is because we who are very experienced have the best understanding of the risks involved in this.

As endlessly stated above. When someone posts that they want to try Hots and they read like a six year old kid wanting candy (I.E. not listening to sense and insisting on the big bad)then I will do everything in my power to discourage them.

As for the rest. If some approaches me sainly and seriously (as indicated by what they ask and how well they listen, I will still advise of the dangers, but I will encourage a careful begining.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

And as for those who foolishy ignore good advice and go on their own, that is the nature of humanity. it is just like a teenager you warn about speeding and who burns rubber two seconds later.

Ther are allways fools who will do the exact opposite of what makes sense because they really did not want advice-they wanted to hear some one say "Yeah man...go for it."

For such a person, no good advice will help because yes, they will find a way to do it Legally or otherwise. That can not be helped.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

... the guy who's first snakes were a pair of tigers at the age of 12??
... the ten year old who caught his first two redbellies?
... the first person to ever keep inland and coastal taipans? (not knowing anything about their capabilities, venom, etc)

Frank, I live in Victoria. It's somewhat cool and unpredictable climate make it a place that pythons and colubrids stay away from (this is presumably applicable in any number of places). The vast majority of our snakes in victoria are venomous.

Only a handful of decades ago, a few of the 'names' here in Vic began keeping Victorias natives. They had no one to teach them how, and keeping non-venomous snakes was just not an option - they were on the other half of the continent.

Yet, if a 10 year old came in here today (with presumably poor spelling and a lack of ability to construct appropriate sentences), and was passionate and dedicated and wanting to learn and keep hots, I have no doubt that that kid would be turned away. Their questions wouldn't be thought out very well. They might not understand what they're being told. But nevertheless, it's been done before - a 10 year old could be perfectly capable and qualified to keep a hot.

Frank, 30 years ago, when the ball began to roll here in Vic, some of our best-known were beind it. And they were 10 and 12 years old.

So, generally, to the few applicable in the forum, don't pick on the little guy. Don't turn him or her away with haste. Because, if a 10 year old can go out and grab some Tiger Snakes from the wild, raise them, breed them, care for them - then practically anybody can. It doesn't take a genious. It doesn't take a university degree. I believe that this may have been what Scott was getting at when he said you don't need to be an expert with half a lifetime of experience with non-vens first.

Aaron,

I do not have a degree, nor did the people who taught me. I am well known for my condemnation of the piece of paper vs field experience.

I caught my first snake-a pigmy rattler at age five. Had no idea what it was and I was lucky as hell it didn't bite me (probably because it was a baby and the morning was cold when I was picking up plant trimmings for my father).

As I recall, Bill Haast started at fourteen.

Getting to the point, I am sure you will agree that not everyone shows the same level of maturity...and that's what matters most. It's not the spelling-it is the way the questions are phrased and how they respond to the answers that tells me whether this person might be able to handle it-or it's just some punk trying to be cool.

In this country 10 year olds are not legal in many states to possess venemous reptiles (note recent laws). Advising a minor to keep something dangerous can have legal reprecussions if your advice causes them to get hurt or killed. Doesn't matter how responsible they are.

When you post in a forum like this, other 10 year old's read it and think they too can do it. Like I said before, what we write here is seen by more than the immediate person. I have been contacted by a parent before who complained that my advice on these forums was bad for their kid.

Yes I will turn a ten year old away from venemous...just as I would turn them away from guns. If a parent wants to train their child in either, then it is their perogative as LEGAL GUARDIAN. Since I am not, advocating something this dangerous is at the very least-irresponsable.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I have a very restricted knowledge of american law (only what i've picked up here). So I therefore cannot comment on the liability of telling a ten year old to get vens. However, I highly doubt there is a duty of care held by persons in this forum to other users that doesn't extend beyond that of the Terms of Service and the disclaimer at the top of the page.

Whilst spelling might not be important (i can't believe i'm even mentioning it, it's pathetic), turn of phrase is. But you cannot expect a perfectly capable 10 year old to always be able to choose the right vocabulary. And that does not make a person less able to properly keep hots... safely (and of course, under supervision of parents... even if the extent of their knowledge ceases beyond common sence).

All I was getting at was that I think that some people are too quick to judge others. I'm sure we can agree to disagree on some matters, but I still am of the opinion that those here aren't adequately equipped to assess the vast majority of users here just by what they can extrapolate from short posts of questions.

We are never going to agree on all issues raised in this latest stream of somewhat controversial posts. But, what the hell, there's absolutely nothing wrong with a healthy discussion on pressing matters.

Cheers,
Aaron.
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Happy Herping

Aaron,

I am afraid your impression of American law is not spot on. Our laws vary from comunity to comunity and state to state as well as Federal law. It's a tanged mess.

The disclaimers on these forums would be sorely tested in a court of law. I frankly do not have the confidence that one could walk away scott-free if you told a child it was ok to keep a dangerous animal. At the very least, I could (and KINGSNAKE) be sued. We are a very littigeous country. Even if we won the court costs could be severe.

Think about this...What if your son was told by a stranger it was Ok to keep a death adder and-not wanting to face your possible disapproval, he sets it up in a cage in some secret place. Then he gets bit and dies because he's alone. Who are you going to blame?

If I err on the side of caution, I feel no foul is committed.

This thread has use in that it has spotlighted some of the issues we have to deal with when giving advice on a forum. Its never simple when you are dealing with possibly lethal consequences.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank,

I agree with you on certain things and not on others.

I understand that America's legal system is far too ununiformed and almost chaotic (there is absolutely no sense to it!). Pick a state, any state - you'll have conflicting laws.

Regarding liability - is it right to tell someone they're not ready just because you're afraid of suit? It might be better to advise in some cases that the person asking questions should talk it over with a wide assortment of people. Family. Friends. Herpetologists. Toxicologists. Whatever. The list is endless. In making my decision to get into herps, i consulted many people (and not just those with experience in reptiles), and considered the opinions of many people around me.

I'd like to quote my original post:

"With that said, there are always exceptions to every rule. And there are also many other things to consider (money, general husbandry, ability to provide due care and security, opinions of those close to you, licencing restrictions, etc) "

Note the bolded statements.

I think that is far better advice than 'stick to your corns', which is something that appears here quite frequently (and, admittedly, is sometimes appropriate).

Anyways, I think we've covered so many aspects of keeping (who should, who shouldn't, how to spell appropriately, etc). And, I don't wish to continue competing our opinions.

You know my opinions, I know yours. I think that we both agree somewhat with each other, and disagree on aspects too. There's nothing wrong with that.

That said, keep safe -
Aaron.

Aaron,
You are very young (sounds like a cop-out but really it's not).

Being older and knowing a lifetime of family and other concerns taught me that life is more than getting what you want. it is keeping what matters.

I was recntly involved in a legal action that I won. it cost me $30,000 to win it (even though I was right). Only lawyers win lawsuits.

But even without that, to deliberately encourage any child to undertake an unnecessary and dangerous hobby is SOLEY the perogative of the parent (as I have tried to explain). It is extremely dangerous to hand a child a gun because even if they have knowledge people get killed. it happens often here. The difference between a gun and a ven snake is there is far less control.

It has been an interesting thread. You are intelligent and likely will make a great keeper.

But if anything else remember from this that there are bigger responsibilities in giving advice on a forum than just to the person your writting to. And though it may seem slight to you, us older keepers know far better what the consequences can be.

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank,

First, I don't really like the way you've delivered your arguement (the whole 'maybe you'll learn when you're older' thing). But, I can understand what you're saying.

I have read some great arguments on both sides, and I suppose that this post will be a good one for others to read. It shows quite clearly two opposing opinions. Whatever one is right (that is, if either is right) is up to the person reading to decide (in the end, it is still that person's decision). I believe that the 'right' answer lies somewhere in a mixation of all arguments made. I.e. consider this, but then, consider that too. Readers will take advice, or leave it.

And, even you must acknowledge that just because an adult is keeping hots doesn't mean they're doing it properly. In fact, there are probably some kids out there doing it better than some older keepers.

Whilst I am considerably young, I am not a child. I don't have a lifetime of experiences (in herps, or otherwise), but that, in my opinion, doesn't ill-equip me to make a decision. I am just as capable of considering the outcomes of the paths i choose to walk down as the next person.

In the end, my arguments posted here belong to, and are applicable to, me. I was never enforcing anything on anyone, or suggesting that it will apply to everyone (or anyone). I was just wanting to suggest yet another opinion to be considered. I think i have made this clear throughout.

Anyways, thanks to all for suggestions/opinions/views on both sides. There were many valid points made that should be considered by anybody considering getting into vens (or already involved).

Cheers,
Aaron.
-----
Happy Herping

The problem Aaron is you think there are two sides to this, when in fact, there is only one issue: SAFETY.

From your posts you seem to ignore certain key points that have been made about children and snakes, and have taken others personaly which apply in a general sense rather than specificly to you.

You fail to address the issues of (1) Lack of maturity emotionally in the average child. (2) Lack of body mass which makes ven bites much more far dangerous for children. (3)Lack of experience-which matters reguardles of age.(4) the fact that we do have a responsibility for the advice we give.

Maturity comes (occasionally) with age. There are many adults I have met who are too egocentric or just plain bull-headed to safely keep the animals they long for. Really good examples are the Animal Precinct, and Animal Cop shows which spotlights animal abuse as well as Venom ER. They have no shortage of stories. There is an amazing amount of people out there that are idiots, abusers and self proclaimed "Experts". Many of these drive cars (lol).

Maturity Aaron, is the ability to look beyond our personal desires and detach our opinions from our ego's. By so doing one can look at things as they are rather than through the veil of what we want it to be.

I have spent quite a bit of time on this because I think you have the potential to be a good keeper. But I have also spent a lot of time because in your "opinions" you have said things which were wrong and encouraged dangerous behavior-telling kids to go ahead and keep hots if THEY feel they are ready-disreguarding responsible advice.

Before you get on my case for the above statement, keep in mind that the average wannabe reads only what he or she wants out of these threads. They glance through these posts looking only for reasons to back their wants. Give a dozen opinions against what they want vs one for and they will defiently hold up the one exception. I have seen this behavior even on this thread.

That is the nature of kids.

Finally, this started because you wanted a Death Adder for your first hot and resented early advice to start simpler (It is all here printed on these forums). That you changed your mind proves the value of what we write. That you can consider yourself expert enough to give advice on keeping venomous (which you have here) frankly does not speak so well for your maturity. Good advice comes from experience and yours is minimal.

Much has been said about the resentment younger herpers have for those of us with decades of experience. One day you will look at this from the eyes of age and you will appreciate that we wrote here--not because we wanted to put you down, but because we all know the price inherent to this field. That is what maturity is about.

Finally, there is no law saying we have to write or give of our time. That we donate it free of charge should be appreciated-even if the advice is not something you want to hear.

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

And now - a complete acknowledgement, sentence by sentence. Let me know if i've missed anything -

"(1) Lack of maturity emotionally in the average child."

I completely understand this, which is why i was talking about the exceptional few that do have the capacity to keep well. I never suggested that any given 10 year old could manage. The problem is that, every now and then, that rare and 'exceptional' 10 year old could be told to go and play with his goldfish on these boards. Perhaps better advice would be to tell him/her to seek out advice of herpers he knows (or to go out and meet some), and get their opinions as well as those on the boards.

"(2) Lack of body mass which makes ven bites much more far dangerous for children."

Another very good point mentioned in your last post. I had read it and agreed, but forgot to acknowledge, so, my apology on that. A point that should most definately be considered.

"(3)Lack of experience-which matters reguardles of age."

Of course. I never said to go out and get a hot as a first reptile. I just said that there's no harm in being introduced into the world of vens (get some handling experience, or merely watch a keeper handle, etc), even with minimal experience - and do it on your own when your ready. Not sooner.

"(4) the fact that we do have a responsibility for the advice we give."

Of course you have a responsibility. But this creates two opposing duties of care. One to the person you're advising - be safe, don't die, etc (lol). The other to yourselves - be safe, don't get sued (lol). So, where do you draw the line?

"Maturity comes (occasionally) with age. There are many adults I have met who are too egocentric or just plain bull-headed to safely keep the animals they long for."

This is true, but irrelevant to those thinking of becoming keepers themselves (other than prima facie - don't do what they did, look what could happen if... etc).

"Maturity Aaron, is the ability to look beyond our personal desires and detach our opinions from our ego's. By so doing one can look at things as they are rather than through the veil of what we want it to be."

Remember, it was not I that brought up the 'ego' argument. I just think that some here are too quick to turn others away, rather than exploring further what type of person is asking the questions. I wasn't referring to anybody specifically. Like you've already acknowledged (i think, somewhere amongst the massively hard-to-follow jumble of threads occurring on the matter), there are some here who are plain rude - few and far between, albeit.

"I have spent quite a bit of time on this because I think you have the potential to be a good keeper. But I have also spent a lot of time because in your "opinions" you have said things which were wrong and encouraged dangerous behavior-telling kids to go ahead and keep hots if THEY feel they are ready-disreguarding responsible advice."

I wasn't really referring to kids here (although you may consider those in early twenties to be so). I was talking about that quiet moment when you sit down with yourself in your herp room (staring at your pythons at 2:00am as they casually flick their tongues at you, and then glancing over at your wall plastered with pictures of vens, in the dead of the night) and ask yourself, "Do i really want to do this? Do i really want to go down this path? Am i/will i be capable?" In your heart of hearts, not just in your inability to control your wants. I'm sure you can pick the moment i'm talking about. Perhaps i should have made this clearer.

"Before you get on my case for the above statement, keep in mind that the average wannabe reads only what he or she wants out of these threads. They glance through these posts looking only for reasons to back their wants. Give a dozen opinions against what they want vs one for and they will defiently hold up the one exception. I have seen this behavior even on this thread. That is the nature of kids."

See para above. Also, if a person is only going to read or acknowledge what they want to hear, then there probably isn't any point in telling them not to anyways. They're only going to go and buy something.

"Finally, this started because you wanted a Death Adder for your first hot and resented early advice to start simpler (It is all here printed on these forums). That you changed your mind proves the value of what we write."

If i didn't consider the value in what those here right, I wouldn't visit this forum still. I did change my mind, for a number of reasons. First, a death adder isn't going to teach me any of the necessary skills to keep other Australian Elapids. Second, after reading the posts, I investigated further, and had several people suggest that a rbb or collett's would be better. That said, I still know highly respected people here in Vic, who have kept DA's all their lives, along with all other Australian Elapids, who recommend DA's as a first hot - these are people who can compare the positives and negatives of each species, first hand - not from what they hear or read.

"That you can consider yourself expert enough to give advice on keeping venomous (which you have here) frankly does not speak so well for your maturity. Good advice comes from experience and yours is minimal."

I never once projected myself out here as an expert. I clearly labelled my beginning posts as being those of a person who has never even kept a hot. That does not mean that i'm not entitled to have my opinion.

"Much has been said about the resentment younger herpers have for those of us with decades of experience. One day you will look at this from the eyes of age and you will appreciate that we wrote here--not because we wanted to put you down, but because we all know the price inherent to this field. That is what maturity is about."

I appreciate what you and others have written. I just don't agree with it all completely (just as others don't). And I don't believe that age is going to change that. I'll let you know in 40 years

"Finally, there is no law saying we have to write or give of our time. That we donate it free of charge should be appreciated-even if the advice is not something you want to hear."

See above paragraph.

Frank, like I said, I've learned a lot here. And, after it all, I still want to keep hots, and I still think that there are some here that are too quick to warn of the dangers, and not tell of the joys. You never read - "That's a crazy idea. It's not for you kiddo. Far too dangerous. Go and get some experience. 10 years worth. 300 hours of training. Play with your corns in the meantime. But in the end, it's all worth it. Rewarding for every second. I risk my life for it - it's great." All too quick to point out the negatives (as negative as they may be) - and before you reply to this, i know - we're talking about life and death here.

If i didn't consider the value in what those here right, I wouldn't visit this forum still. I did change my mind, for a number of reasons. First, a death adder isn't going to teach me any of the necessary skills to keep other Australian Elapids. Second, after reading the posts, I investigated further, and had several people suggest that a rbb or collett's would be better. That said, I still know highly respected people here in Vic, who have kept DA's all their lives, along with all other Australian Elapids, who recommend DA's as a first hot - these are people who can compare the positives and negatives of each species, first hand - not from what they hear or read.

Correction:

If i didn't consider the value in what those here write, I wouldn't visit this forum still. I did change my mind, for a number of reasons. First, a death adder isn't going to teach me any of the necessary skills to keep other Australian Elapids. Second, after reading the posts, I investigated further, and had several people suggest that a rbb or collett's would be better. That said, I still know highly respected people here in Vic, who have kept DA's all their lives, along with all other Australian Elapids, who recommend DA's as a first hot - these are people who can compare the positives and negatives of each species, first hand - not from what they hear or read.

Ta

The keeping of hots is over complicated?
I have been keeping hots for nearly fifteen years now.... and every time I have to remove a hot from a cage for cleaning or whatever.... my heartrate races and my blood pressure rises and I break out into a sweat!... It still happens after all these years.
Depending on species, the normal day to day captive requirements may be the same as your every day non-ven.
However,I have yet to see someone lose a limb or there life from a cornsnake bite.
Michael