Reptile & Amphibian Forums

several have said that venomous snakes move, think, act, etc different than non. how so? can someone explain the difference, if you can? just curious about this, wondering if its comparable to the difference in a domestic dog vs wolf (which i have been around and worked with, so this analogy would make sense to me). thanks much
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1.0 alb. okeetee "Grissom"
1.0 American Pit Bull Terrier "Vanyel"
0.1 Somali "Willow"

There's too much variation, even within species, to make such a broad generalization about such a large group.

Jason Jones

Yes, a general statement, not outlining specifics.

What i was getting at was that keeping a couple of corns (seemingly a prevalent 'first' snake in the US) won't teach a hell of a lot regarding keeping vens (yes - a large group).

Some move faster, some move slower. Some are arboreal, some are not. Some can climb a hook, some cannot. Some can grip a hook, some cannot. Some will bite something simply because it moves, some will become defensive and back away. Some have further strike ranges, some do not. Some eat rodent, some do not.

Notably, these differences exist between a vast number of genera, and many more 'general' differences not listed. Just wanting to point that out with regards to vens, seeing as the result of a tag is somewhat 'generally' more devastating than the tag of a python.

And another point - just because my opinion is different to yours doesn't mean that I don't know what i'm talking about. I never suggested that I was an experienced hot keeper. And I don't appreciate being belittled.

Aaron.

Aaron, I don't think that this person knew the entire context of what you said, nor did they know it was you. I sure didn't until I read your response.
Ian

I agree it was unclear to begin with. Sounded like you had heard that from someone else.

To attempt to answer your question: Venomous snakes are further advanced than the non-vens. It stands to reason that some at least may well be more "intelligent" than non-vens. It has been pretty much proven or accepted that the most "intelligent" snake in the world is Ophiophagus.

~~Greg~~

whats an ophiblahblah?

makes sense, thank you. sort of like wolves vs dogs. you have to respect the wolf, watch his body language, and be ready to get the f*** out his space when nessicary because he will bite yo sorry arse and not think twice about it. you cant just roughhouse him and play with him and expect no aggression in return like pansy wussy domestic dogs.
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1.0 alb. okeetee "Grissom"
1.0 American Pit Bull Terrier "Vanyel"
0.1 Somali "Willow"

Ophioblahblah also known as Ophiophagus, is your common every day King Cobra.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

most intelligent eh? cool. thanks
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1.0 alb. okeetee "Grissom"
1.0 American Pit Bull Terrier "Vanyel"
0.1 Somali "Willow"

You show some sense here Aaron. But forget about the belittled bit. You said some things here that were wrong and ok...you've changed your mind which is worth respect.

However, it takes a man to appreciate that when people give you good advice it is not cool to put them down for it and they will point out your error.

I sincerely hope you have a long (safe) experience working with the snakes you love. It is just my wish that you enter it slowly and safely so you do not end up in a hospital bed.

All things come in time. After all these years I just got my first ever Western Massassauga. Minor in the realm of hots and not all that rare, but it had eluded me till now. I bred my first Wags and Eyelashes this year.

Patience is good...learning right is best.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I couldn't have said it better myself. When I acquired my first hot, a southern copperhead, many years ago, I was mesmerized by this animal's beauty and behavior. Even to this day, keeping many species of crotalines, vipers, and elapids, that snake is still at the top of my list as he allowed me to understand the full scope of working with a venomous reptile. Young folks today watch too much T.V. and have a need to work with stuff to make them feel macho. Personally, working with a western massasauga and other smaller crots gives me as much satisfaction as the cobras I also get to work with...in fact, these little rattlers bring far more joy in many respects. No point to this comment but I also hope that Aaron learns the trade from the right kinds of people who will instill a much deeper respect for the keeping of venomous herps in addition to respecting the feedback he gets on this forum because there are quite a few people who contribute here who I have the world of respect for....young folks today seem to lack that respect for those who've been in the field a long time (after all, they know far more than us

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>You show some sense here Aaron. But forget about the belittled bit. You said some things here that were wrong and ok...you've changed your mind which is worth respect.
>>
>>However, it takes a man to appreciate that when people give you good advice it is not cool to put them down for it and they will point out your error.
>>
>>I sincerely hope you have a long (safe) experience working with the snakes you love. It is just my wish that you enter it slowly and safely so you do not end up in a hospital bed.
>>
>>All things come in time. After all these years I just got my first ever Western Massassauga. Minor in the realm of hots and not all that rare, but it had eluded me till now. I bred my first Wags and Eyelashes this year.
>>
>>Patience is good...learning right is best.
>>
>>Frank
>>-----
>>"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Points noted, and thank you. Also note the manner in which they were delivered - appropriately. I do have a great respect for all hots (and indeed all snakes) - an awe and admiration for their sheer capabilities and evolution.

What my main point is in all of this is that some are too quick to judge others. I see that there is great controversy in the states about the legality of keeping hots, and note that some are acting to protect their ever-diminishing rights. They don't want to see someone get tagged, and they don't want to see the media's spin on it every time it happens, and its effects on the law.

But, at the same token, if people are too quick to judge, then just in these very boards, worlds of possibilities close for individuals who are replied to unfashonably, who come here for help, and are shunned off just as quickly. Now that is elitist.

In the end, is it fair to turn someone away, who has done the smart thing - seeked out knowledge?

Perhaps it would be better to make those who don't seem ready understand the views held about them in an empathetic tone (and not a condescending one) understand those very views. And, whatmore, to help eradicate any reason for those views in the first place through education.

If certain people here bit their tongues for just a second, they could see what i'm talking about. Yes, some of the people here are experts, and that is the very reason newbies come here. So don't turn them away.

Aaron.

I have to say that I see good points made by all. I personally would love to have an Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake. However there is a specific reason why I dont.

- Lack of experience
- illegal in my place of residence
- inability to afford antivenin in the event that I get nailed.

This hobby is full of individuals that rush into things. Rushing isn't going to help you acquire experience, in fact it can only prevent you from acquiring the proper experience. There are so many people who wish to do things the improper way, and these are the ones that kill our hobby (or whatever you wish to call it). By taking your time and doing things the proper way, you are ensuring that you will be successful in what you do, and at the same moment you will help put our hobby in a positive light.

The mistakes you make dont just effect yourself. They affect everyone that has the same passion as you. There are several keepers in here that have worked hard to obtain the experience they have and are very responsible keepers. At the same time, there are those that just "wing it" and those are typically the ones you will see on the headlines. Sure I have heard of zoo-keepers and such getting tagged. But they wont make the front page. Why? Because they take precautions to help ensure that the bite victim lives. Most people that obtain venomous snakes, are keeping them in inadequate caging, w/out proper experience, and most likely they dont know where the nearest location of "Black Mamba" antivenin is in the event they get bit.

I used to be one of the ones in and out of the forums asking annoying questions (actually, let me take that back.....I still am one of the ones continuously asking annoying questions). But one thing that I notice between some of my questions, and those that others ask, is that most of the time the person asking the question hasn't bothered to research the issue further before coming into a forum and asking, "How do I take care of this, I got it for my birthday!?!" or "I am 16 years old and want a king cobra, how can I get one?". I prefer to research my questions first and try to ask a more intelligent question. I dont ask if I am ready to keep something, I know I am not if I have to. Furthermore, you are in a forum where nobody knows who you are. Nobody knows of your state of mentality, or your physical capabilities, or your financial situation.

Most individuals in here do try to deterr people from obtaining the animals because of these reasons.

However, I have seen in the past how some people prefer to "deter" the prospective keeper, and I did not approve of their methods. Recently, I haven't really seen any problems, but I used to see it in here about a year ago and it really angered me.

Some even went into how the young kid was spelling and such.- this to me is simply wrong. Not everyone was able to attend a "private" school that their mommy's and daddy's paid extra for.- EASE OFF!

However, if you have never even held a non-venomous snake, in my sincere opinion that you have NO business with a venomous snake. But you would be surprised how many people would attempt it. As for complexity of keeping, I can't comment as I have stated before, I have no experience with hots (unfortunately). However, the fact that these animals can kill you with a single bite, is certainly not something to take lightly.

I could go on a little more, but I am at work so better act like I am doing something. I can add to this later.

Best Wishes,

Chris

I am probably one of those that get critical at times by grammar/spelling/etc. Public schools, if doing there job, and, if the student is applying himself/herself, should be able to master basic grammar and spelling. There's just no excuse to not be able to write intelligently written sentences (and you can probably find a few mistakes in my writing...actually, many). I just get a bit concerned when I see people making posts who honestly have about a 3rd grade writing level that are keeping venomous creatures that require a far higher level of learning. Just my .02. All of your other comments were right on.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center
Lake Forest, IL

>>I have to say that I see good points made by all. I personally would love to have an Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake. However there is a specific reason why I dont.
>>
>>- Lack of experience
>>- illegal in my place of residence
>>- inability to afford antivenin in the event that I get nailed.
>>
>>This hobby is full of individuals that rush into things. Rushing isn't going to help you acquire experience, in fact it can only prevent you from acquiring the proper experience. There are so many people who wish to do things the improper way, and these are the ones that kill our hobby (or whatever you wish to call it). By taking your time and doing things the proper way, you are ensuring that you will be successful in what you do, and at the same moment you will help put our hobby in a positive light.
>>
>>The mistakes you make dont just effect yourself. They affect everyone that has the same passion as you. There are several keepers in here that have worked hard to obtain the experience they have and are very responsible keepers. At the same time, there are those that just "wing it" and those are typically the ones you will see on the headlines. Sure I have heard of zoo-keepers and such getting tagged. But they wont make the front page. Why? Because they take precautions to help ensure that the bite victim lives. Most people that obtain venomous snakes, are keeping them in inadequate caging, w/out proper experience, and most likely they dont know where the nearest location of "Black Mamba" antivenin is in the event they get bit.
>>
>>I used to be one of the ones in and out of the forums asking annoying questions (actually, let me take that back.....I still am one of the ones continuously asking annoying questions). But one thing that I notice between some of my questions, and those that others ask, is that most of the time the person asking the question hasn't bothered to research the issue further before coming into a forum and asking, "How do I take care of this, I got it for my birthday!?!" or "I am 16 years old and want a king cobra, how can I get one?". I prefer to research my questions first and try to ask a more intelligent question. I dont ask if I am ready to keep something, I know I am not if I have to. Furthermore, you are in a forum where nobody knows who you are. Nobody knows of your state of mentality, or your physical capabilities, or your financial situation.
>>
>>Most individuals in here do try to deterr people from obtaining the animals because of these reasons.
>>
>>However, I have seen in the past how some people prefer to "deter" the prospective keeper, and I did not approve of their methods. Recently, I haven't really seen any problems, but I used to see it in here about a year ago and it really angered me.
>>
>>Some even went into how the young kid was spelling and such.- this to me is simply wrong. Not everyone was able to attend a "private" school that their mommy's and daddy's paid extra for.- EASE OFF!
>>
>>However, if you have never even held a non-venomous snake, in my sincere opinion that you have NO business with a venomous snake. But you would be surprised how many people would attempt it. As for complexity of keeping, I can't comment as I have stated before, I have no experience with hots (unfortunately). However, the fact that these animals can kill you with a single bite, is certainly not something to take lightly.
>>
>>I could go on a little more, but I am at work so better act like I am doing something. I can add to this later.
>>
>>Best Wishes,
>>
>>Chris
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Mr. Carmichael,

I agree that most people should be able to construct a proper sentence and be able spell correctly in most instances. However, just as nobody in here knows one another as far as mentality, physical capabilities, education, etc. you dont necessarily know their background either.

I know of a couple of younger individuals that are not of this country that had posted on this forum (about a year or so ago) because they were truly interested in this hobby. In fact they had posted in a couple of different forums. While I could understand them, they spoke broken english at best. Being that they could barely speak it, how well do you expect them to write/type it? Are you saying that if a person can't spell or write a PERFECT sentence, that they shoudnt be allowed to have an interest?

I may not know how to properly spell (nor what it means)- supercalifragalisticexpeouladicious (sp?) but I know what venom can do and I know what delivers it, and I personally think that is a good start (of course not saying that I am ready for hots yet).

I think the main thing that made me attack the whole spelling/grammatical deal was an individual that used to post on this site. I dont remember his name but if I remember correctly he was a school teacher and went by the tag-line, "The mouse in the house". There was a young kid that was in here asking some questions about handling tools and misspelled a good number of them (although you could understand what tools he was referring to). The individual had corrected him on his spelling, scolded him about coming into this forum without knowing proper spelling of the tools, then made the comment, "Good ol' public education". That last comment really struck a nerve and if I had been able to reach through the monitor and choke the life out of him I would have. In my opinion there is simply no excuse for that kind of rudeness, and if he felt so strongly about private schools, perhaps he should cough up the money to change that for the kid.

My apologies for the ongoing rant. Mr. Carmichael you know that I have nothing but the highest respect for you and your facility and I dont mean to be offensive or sound like I am attacking you in any way. It is simply my opinion that providing a level of respect to those that do not have quite as high of an education as yourself, can go a long way to that person.

Best wishes to all- once again, my apologies for the rant.

Chris

Aaron,

What your failing to remember, is we DO remember your earlier posts where you insisted people like myself and BGF were wrong to disuade you from keeping a Death Adder as your first hot.

So saying our response to you was not to someone who was posting for the first time. I do not get my dander up except when someone makes clear references to good advice they asked for and then belittles those who took the time to answer those questions.

Go back and read your first posts from a couple weeks ago and maybe you will understand the reaction you got this time.

I am not hostile to those who ask begginners questions...just to those who expect answers that they want instead of the truth.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Excellent last sentence.

Bill Huseth
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Venomous snakes---best hobby on earth!
Bill Huseth

Frank,

So you (and Brian) recommend a Death Adder as a first hot? that would probably serve you well as a starter if you were mainly going to keep viperids and crotalids. As these (vipers etc) are not legally held in Australia then the possibilty that this will be the basis of a future collection would be slim at best. (I don't expect you too know legal regs in Australia as much as I would hope that I am not expected to know what they are in the states)
Now I understand that you also recommended back fangs as well they are certainly more closer to the mark however the are issue regards availiblity (as I stated elsewhere).

So why are Death Adders bad starters? Well highly toxic venom, generally unpredictable, very fast strikers but slow moving but don't hook well, small individuals can have husbandry problems (common for anorexia, retained brilles and other sloughing difficulties) and more specifically to Aaron's Case being in Victoria much less appropriate antivenom being carried by most hospitals.

Regards,
Scott

I checked myself for spelling and so will take the blame. Note the word dissuade...as in efforts to.

I most certainly do not recommend a deathAdder as a first hot and niether did Rob.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank,

I never put anybody down. And I never suggested that the people here don't know what they are talking about. I was merely getting at the fact that some are too quick to judge.

I do appreiciate the advice i got here. And, there's the possibility that i'll be back in this forum again (probably posting pics)

I don't wish to undermine anybody here, but, just for my own interest, how many of you have actually kept wide assortments of Australian Elapids for extended periods?

I'm not attacking anybody's expertise here, but rather their capacity to address the questions of some.

Cheers,
Aaron.

Aaron, My experience with Australian Elapids is minimal. For that reason you will not see me giving health and care advice on those.

I have worked with Cobras but again (as I have said many times) they are not something I feel comfortable with, so I won't spout off on that either. Though I do have a Coral Cobra at home (which is a very diffent animal).

I do have extensive experience with vipers (old and new world)and snakes of what used to be called Ophistoglyphs. These are my prefered areas of study.

However, The issues here are pretty basic. I would not recommend a Crotallus durrissus terificus or a Fer de Lance to a beginner, nor would I recommend a Boomslang for a first rearfang.

Common sense. You learn on what is safest and advance. You don't need to be an expert on Australian Elapids to understand that principle.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

the person who said that either didn't know what they were talking about, or didn't think hard about what they had said.

I didn't comment on your statement (opinion) because it was different. I commented on it because it was incorrect. Contrary to popular belief, classifying a statement as an opinion doesn't protect that statement from being wrong.

That said, I apologize if I offended you.

Regards,

Jason Jones

You are referring to Amayon's question, sparked by me -

"Several have said that venomous snakes move, think, act, etc different than non. how so?"

I ask you this then -
Are you suggesting that they move,think, act, etc, just like all other snakes?
How so is that statement incorrect?

"That person doesn't know what they're talking about". That to me is insulting, nevertheless, i accept your apology.

Cheers,
Aaron.

My objection wasn't to imply that venomous move/think/act the same as nonvenomous, but rather to point out that such an absolute generalization just is not true.

1. Movement
Ever kept any Micrurus or Micruroides? Explain to me how their movement might be different from all non-venomous snakes. How about Clelia?

2. Think
I'll just skip this one.

3. Act
There's too much individual variation.

Jason Jones

But at any time did i profess that my statement was specific? Or, in the alternative, was i just pointing out that some vens are gonna be different, all round?

So then, my statement isn't incorrect, thereby, it is correct, thereby i don't necessarily not "know what i'm talking about".

2. Think - it is well known that some species of snake have different mental capacities than others. Once again, I was just pointing out that this is something to consider.

Now you're arguing just for the sake of saving face. I'm bored, I'll play. Plus it'll be a good lesson in logic.

No, you didn't profess that your statement was specific (which, in context doesn't quite make sense). As luck would have it, I wasn't directly responding to anything you said. I was responding to this statement by the original poster:

"venomous snakes move, think, act, etc different than non."

The implication here is that anything that can be classified as a venomous snake moves AND thinks AND acts differently from anything that can be classified as a non-venomous snake. This statement is rendered false by a single venomous snake that either moves, acts, or thinks the same as a non-venomous. Can you think of one? I can. It's therefore false (incorrect, lol).

That said, you could potentially dispute the definition of "same" but just drop it, and lets all be friends.

If you want to "refine" or ellaborate on the statement you originally made to the point that it's correct and less easily "misinterrpreted" that's perfectly fine with me, lol.

JJ

Cheers JJ,

I get what you're saying. Our 'little tiff' was not really one of any substance, but a mere arguement on word choice.

Anyways, I better go get some sleep, all this arguing has made me tired (and my fingers are sore), and I need to be on my best tomorrow - it's show and tell day and kindergarten

Cheers,
Aaron.

np

i dont know WHO said it, that im asking about, but TWO different people both said it. i dont know if one of them was aaron, so dont just jump all over him. someone else said the same thing. thats why i asked, and why i said SEVERAL people have said it.
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1.0 alb. okeetee "Grissom"
1.0 American Pit Bull Terrier "Vanyel"
0.1 Somali "Willow"

Well, I'll try to explain it the best I can. Each species of snake has it's own set of reflexes, patterns of speed and movement, preferred prey items, preferred habitat, different thought pattern (or lack thereof) etc. So by default, since they're all different species, of course they're different.

It isn't that all venomous snakes are incorrigible, untameable ferocious creatures compared to meek and docile little non-venomous snakes. The elapids (Cobras, mambas taipans etc), are fast moving, intelligent (for snakes) and quite venomous. They're frankly scary. But then if you look at some other examples, Western Hognoses are venomous (not dangerously, just rearfanged and technically venomous), but quite docile while non-venomous racers and some tree boas can be ferocious.

It's basically the potential for damage that sets the two groups apart. If (to offer a huge hypothetical) cobras and copperheads were naturally non-venomous and held no more danger than a cornsnake, they'd probably be popular pets, freely handled among enthusiasts.

But back in our non-hypothetical world, ill tempered whitelip pythons are acclimated to handling and made model citizens out of, while the most meek of venomous is given (by the wise) a hands off approach not due to a ferocious nature, but the potentially lethal risk of a single bite.

Hope that ramble made sense. If you're still looking for a gorgeous snake to admire from a hands off perspective, there are plenty of non-venomous that while they can't do you serious harm, they can still stare through you and have a marvelous intensity.
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0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

" If you're still looking for a gorgeous snake to admire from a hands off perspective, there are plenty of non-venomous that while they can't do you serious harm, they can still stare through you and have a marvelous intensity."

i am! what do you suggest
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1.0 alb. okeetee "Grissom"
1.0 American Pit Bull Terrier "Vanyel"
0.1 Somali "Willow"