Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I would like to know if anyone has ever had any luck getting justice from the legal system against scammers. I ask because I sold some het pied females to a guy, and since I sold them the original breeder has pretty much been discovered to be selling fake hets. The buyer bred one of the females this year, and guess what no pieds. I have told my customer I will take care of him, but I am out the money. I am sure many of you know who I am talking about, but please do not mention his name on here or this will be deleted, afterall he is still selling het pieds to this day on kingsnake. I would just like any opinions on how LEGALLY I can get this resolved. Thanks for any imput. Craig Kade

I think most people just write it off and try to learn some lesson. Personally, this sends a message to scammers - "It's ok". It would be nice to see them pay for their crimes.

To know for sure, I would contact an attorney in your area. They will know the laws and the likelyhood of you recovering any damage. The biggest problem I see is proving your case. Until an animal can be medically checked to determine if it is het or not, I cannot see how this can be done. Until that time, it is up to the community to "police" itself. Personally, if this is the person I think it is, then everyone should complain to KS.
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

This is why I always ask for some paper work, like a rescipt with mine and the sellers JonhHandCock. So later down the line if something dosen't check out I will have some poof. Just this week at Daytona I bounght a male het albino from "Reptiles By Mack", I asked and I recevied. Done, like that. So next time have something on paper.
Good luck.

Cheers.
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Murphy's Laws:
"Nothing is as easy as it looks."
"Anything that can go wrong will go wrong."

I think I know who your talking about, and If it is, then there might be a problem.

If this is who I think it is, and if you got the hets, say a few years ago, the guy(if this is who I think it is) who signd the papper work is dead, and I don't think you could sue his son. Even if he signed the dead guys name, but I'm not sure about that. I THINK if you can PROVE the signature is a forgery, you might get somewhere.

Kinda sucks if you ask me.

I have plenty of paperwork and they are micro chipped, so now what?? The guy signed the paperwork as hi father. Problem is his father had been dead fo several years before that. Craig

without a chip registered or at least 2 copies of pictures both signed by you both.........showing full back pattern

anyone can make a paper.....and even the buyer can switch the balls down the road and say...they were not het and rip off the seller after the fact too
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yes I would like 2 eggroll with that please...........................................

They are microchipped, that means nothing also.

no.microchips mean they have a number that is suposed to be registered at a place like the zoo? I forget which one does it too......

anyways......if there is 2 copies of paperwork that state this number snake is this het for this morph and it doesn't prove out then you may have a better chance of getting even.......

have to prove it out and have to prove you did it correctly.....?

I guess nothing means anything.you are right.....

buy from honest people........

that live close enough to find later on.......

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yes I would like 2 eggroll with that please...........................................

If it is who I think it is and the guy who you bought the fake hets from is dead and his son took over the business - then the son would still be obligated to make good on the genetics guarantee if he has taken over the same business that the guarantee was under. If he has opened a new business then you are pretty much screwed - but if he's operating under the same business license as the man who signed the genetics guarantee then yes he has to make good on all contracts under that business name - you can take him to court.

BTW - That pastel you sold me earlier this year is turning into a real good looking guy - Thanks!

Best of luck -
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Tosha

"One of these days i am going to wake up..look around...and realize my place looks more like "Ace Venturas"s than my own." Coldthumb

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul "JP"
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 lizard rescued from vicious feline

The funny part is his father signed my receipt like 3 or 4 years after his death,lol. Has anyone else ever stopped to think that it is impossible to disprove a het in a court of law?? Everyone who buys bad hets is screwed if you get right down to it. I am pretty sure these guys have sold over 100 "hets" over the past 3 years, maybe more. They have sold enough, now they can but real pieds.

Posted by: craig k.

The funny part is his father signed my receipt like 3 or 4 years after his death,lol. Has anyone else ever stopped to think that it is impossible to disprove a het in a court of law?? Everyone who buys bad hets is screwed if you get right down to it. I am pretty sure these guys have sold over 100 "hets" over the past 3 years, maybe more. They have sold enough,now they can but real pieds.

Since it is impossible to sign anything if your dead... would there not be be a law that was broken right there?(Since it is the same company.)...just a thought.

As far as buying real piebalds with fake het money...who is going to believe them when they are finally able to produce and sell any real hets?

...and yanno.
These people(scammers in general)must think they are impervious to illegal actions of others as well...
Not everyone that gets scammed is going to react the same way...Civility tends to get thrown out the window once there is an issue with money(even among the honest folks).
...tick tock
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

To rule in your favor. A first year law student (not even a person working as a clerk or doing thier articles) would drag up a $150/hr statistician and EASILY prove that 10 hetrozygous females can produce no homozygous animals if bred to a homozygous animal. Additionally, the lawyer of the person "ripping" people off would start to shroud breeding information, etc. in a cloud of mystery thereby confusing the judge further. Lose, lose situation. You can't prove anything without difinative blood tests for genetics. Too bad established breeders couldn't spare one percent of thier anual sales to start studies into gene maping. They can afford it.

Dave

I got hets from the same person. I have an RDR het pied I plan to breed to the female supposed het. You gotta to bred them twice to see if you get pieds. Luckily a freind of mine is now a laywer and will take my case.So lawyer fees will not be a problem for me.If not there are other ways of doing things.The store they have was filthy when I went. So a few calls to the ASPCA and animalcontrol or getting the law involved in cruelity to animals would help alot. There is more than one way to skin a fat cat.

>>To rule in your favor. A first year law student (not even a person working as a clerk or doing thier articles) would drag up a $150/hr statistician and EASILY prove that 10 hetrozygous females can produce no homozygous animals if bred to a homozygous animal. Additionally, the lawyer of the person "ripping" people off would start to shroud breeding information, etc. in a cloud of mystery thereby confusing the judge further. Lose, lose situation. You can't prove anything without difinative blood tests for genetics. Too bad established breeders couldn't spare one percent of thier anual sales to start studies into gene maping. They can afford it.
>>
>>Dave
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Thomas Jones
aligatorhunter@cox.net

By my calculations 12 hatchlings (from 2 good years breeding a single female) producing no pieds from het-het pairing would statistically occur one in every 31.6 attempts. However, if you up the sample size to 30 eggs the probability jumps to one in every 5,600 attempts. Throw in a few pied-het pairings and the odds of failing to produce a pied hatchling go through the roof! Once again, I'm no statistician, so if someone calculates different probabilities, I won't be offended! What would be ideal is a form of class action law suits where several victims team up, combine their breeding results such that no statisician could claim the data is beyond reasonable doubt. Maybe even share the expense of some handwriting analysis on all the reciepts signed by "Dad" or "Gail" or whoever. I believe the statistics of maybe 60 hatchlings that should be produced by this time next year would be overwhelming and make a very sound case along with the obviously questionable business practices going on at the time. Also I had my snake's microchip ID verified by my vet and AVID. AVID's records show the microchip was sold to the son, but never registered in AVID's database for lost pets. I hope she'll produce this season when I breed her to one of my proven het pied males.
Paul

Round numbers

12 eggs from homo x het breeding producing no homo animals is 1:410 approx.

Odds of getting no homo's from a homo x het with 12 eggs is 1:4096...or 0.0244%

Man what a fool! explains why i always hit the 80% in my classes. Stupid mistakes.

Isn't easier to just microchip them? It's not major surgery, heck I wouldn't be surprised if the next person who puts out a ball python guide doesn't include the inns and outs on how to do it.

Dave

Micro chipping can confirm it's the same animal (of course a good picture can too) but it doesn't eliminate the possibility of retained sperm or pathogenesis not to mention breeding mistakes or outright dishonesty. Of course there is also the issue of being just unlucky on proving a het. If there where a paternity test it would seem to me to be the best way to settle the issue of if an animal sold as a het was really the offspring of the recessive morph claimed. Of course even then people sell animals or they die and the parent might not be available for court supervised testing anymore. Hard to find a perfect solution.

I think both calculations are correct, that's why I mentioned that a few pied/het pairings would shoot the statistics through the roof!
Paul

If this is the place that I think it is, then it is very close to where I used to live. I am up that way several times a year (dropping of kids with grandparents for a few weeks during summer and winter breaks... gotta love a deal like that!), next time I run through I will stop by there and then call the ASPCA about the conditions. I'll just make it part of the trip each way. I'll see if I can't get some friends around there to swing by and complain too! ***Now, that is only if there is something to report and complain about! ...like that will be difficult to find there!
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Bryan, Atlanta GA

1-0-0 Ball Python - Apep
0-1-0 Mountain Horned Dragon - Ki
0-0-1 Aggressive Bearded Dragon - Zeus
1-1-0 Rats... no wait... ROTTEN Little Cats - Ra, Bastet
0-1-0 Little Angelic Kitten - Isis
1-0-0 Horse... whoops... BIG Golden Retriever - Jake
0-1-0 Wife
2-0-0 Kids

Thanks man, any bit of agravation is appreciated. Craig

Depending on what the genetics guarantee states statistics don't really mean squat - if the genetics guarantee says they will produce pieds in one or two breedings - if they don't and the seller doesn't back up that guarantee then thats their problem. I haven't read the genetics guarantee but I'll bet it says something to that effect.

But at this point you've got him on forgery and fraud - for signing his fathers name to a legal document. It's pretty easy to prove a dead guy can't sign documents. Multiply that times as many people that he scammed - march them all in front of a judge with their forged documentation - who is more credible - the scammer or the victims?

My guess is there are probably a lot of illegal things this guy is doing - check his licenses, permits, taxes etc. hell he's robably not even shipping legally - put the pressure on him make him miserable - shut him down and get him the hell out of the industry.

LOL. I have no sympathy for scammers.
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Tosha

"One of these days i am going to wake up..look around...and realize my place looks more like "Ace Venturas"s than my own." Coldthumb

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul "JP"
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 lizard rescued from vicious feline

>>Too bad established breeders couldn't spare one percent of thier anual sales to start studies into gene maping.

Okay... that's a GREAT idea!!! Let's go a bit further...

I am not even a small time breeder - YET, and I would love to donate to the genetic mapping of BPs. I am fairly sure I am not alone. So who do we contact and how do we get the ball rolling? Yes, the pun was intended

Let's not just point at the "big" breeders and say "you should..." Does anyone know of a university or other research facillity that might take an interest in this?

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Tammy

"Give me the luxuries of life and I will gladly do without the necessities." ~~ Frank Lloyd Wright

I think a paternity test would be a lot easier to develop and would apply to new mutations even after het pieds are too cheap to bother testing.

So how do we get something going? The AKC has DNA testing for dogs, to prove paternity. I'm wondering if there would need to be some type of registry to validate the authentisity of DNA tests? Just a thought...
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Tammy

"Give me the luxuries of life and I will gladly do without the necessities." ~~ Frank Lloyd Wright

They have paternity tests for most every kind of domestic animal and even several fish. It sounds like it's just a matter of a lab seeing the market and developing a test for ball pythons. It probably helped a lot that those other species have been studied in universities forever vs. snakes where there probably isn't much genetic research to build on.

They don't have to. They did thier part.

By the way... how much is a microchip anyway?

Dave

The chips themselves are rather cheap.
While i've read that some are paying around $40 to $50,i've had it done for $15.
They come with a set of stickers with the chips id# on them.
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Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

I didn't mean to illicit a response. I was just being facetious. The cost is so low that it is just a matter of getting it into the animal. Myself, when I'm ready to sell and I'm at that point then yes I will microchip. I'll spend the time, effort and energy and learn how to do it (unless it can be reasonably offered at the $15 range/ea in qty)

Dave

you would have to prove the snakes in question came from the origional seller and then prove they were not hets.it would take more than one year of breeding to prove they are not.especially if you use het to het breedings......

the only way to prove this all is to have pictures that clearly show the snakes pattern .like a fingerprint......and to have it micro-chipped actually......you would both need paperwork with signatures stating that this is this and that is that and this is price and all signed and all dated .copy for each of you.and registered paperwork for chip.....

......buy from who you know..........

and if you have bred the het to a het....remember you may have just had crappy odds.....try again next year.I know..they should have made a morph the first year but.....stuff happens...

...........
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yes I would like 2 eggroll with that please...........................................

If it was just one het to het breeding, I would not think much of it, however there are a lot of other people having bad luck with this guys hets, like nobody has produced a homo. Craig

oh.I believe people lie and I believe there are hundreds of hets and possible hets that were sold as such even with the fact knowb that they were normals to begin with..........people just think they won't get caught for a few years so.hey..they do it....

people suck

.....I know............

I sell hets and they are het,,,,.I don't chip and I don't take pictures..when they leave my table ,they are gone....and I don't want people trying to bring them back.because I cannot tell if they switched them or not.......or even their friend's may have switched them by accident or to rip them off even......

I do trust a few people...actually I had 25 hets and poss hets attend Daytona........wow...my snakes get to go to Florida and I don't......sad......not a real vacation for me........LOL..........well..they are in a cup....guess it's no picnic for them either......

anyways.........I sell hets.and some people ask if I guarentee them at a show.I say yes untill you leave the table then I explain......and I tell them my number if they like and references if they like.....if they don't trust me they can walk away........I know what I got......

some people are just liers.......and the classifieds is full of crap...........actually..........did you notice....this year the classifieds were full of crap and now it's full of really good stuff....lots and lots of good stuff.........lots of balls out there.........
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yes I would like 2 eggroll with that please...........................................

Sorry to hear about your troubles, I hope everything works out. If you don't mind can you tell me the person's name who is selling fake pieds on kingsnake. I just want to make sure I don't buy any from him in the future. Thanks.

Maybe someone someone should start a service, Were you could "rent" a full homo morph to breed with your hets or "Rent to Own."
Of course, You would have to sign a contact and some insurance stuff incase it should die, get sick, eta. And if breeding is successful, The service owner would get half of the living clutch neonates, Also, first picks at morphs.
What do you think? Thanks
Cheers.
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Murphy's Laws:
"Nothing is as easy as it looks."
"Anything that can go wrong will go wrong."

I have bought lots of hets from lots of people and I dont know whom you all are talking about? can someone email me and tell me whom it is so I can see if I am getting my hopes up for nothing !! thanks.

JIM

Sorry, you can not say on k/s who is ripping dozens of people off. I actually just had an add pulled from the classifieds, for saying the hets may be fake in my ad, so basically I got penalized for being honest when I was trying to sell something. If I put another ad on right now for the same snake and don't mention it may be fake it will be fine. Craig