Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Okay, sorry that i havent had a chance to get back to anybodys posts. What is inbetween the ----'s is my initial post.

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I have a licorice stick black rat snake going on about 2 and a half years. She went off feed last winter, so i put her in brumation. and ever since I took her out this spring, she hasn't been eating right. She'll eat maybe 2-3 meals, then the 4th she regurgitates, so ill go back with smaller prey and start all over again. She's getting REALLLLY BAD. I mean she barely has enough energy to crawl around her tank right now. I've made a vet appointment for tomorrow morning, but my question is.. is there anything the vet can do? I mean when I got her at a year old she was about 20" and eating mouse fuzzies. She went up to rat pinks to rat fuzzies and was gaining weight very well, but now shes really back down small... i've heard of a pinky pres.. where can i get one of these at? It's coming down to the last ditch efforts now I really don't wanna lose her... please help anybody that can...

I just put her in a smaller cage.. back in a 10 gallon thinking maybe she was really stressed... and she turned her head upside down. Never seen this before... is this a sign of something?
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I was asked what are the hot/cool sides. 85-87 / 77-80.

How long do I give her after she regurgs? - usually 2 weeks (i feed once a week, so I just skip one feeding to keep them all on the same schedule.) However, after she regurged again I started 10 days after it.

Most recent update:

I took her to this guy that is a retired reptile vet, who now runs a pet store. He looked her over, looked for the exact same things I did. She is a whiteside, so they are somewhat translucent. We could see no internal blockage.

She has no signs of mouth rot.

No signs of respiratory infection.

No broken back. She will turn over if turned upside down, and still climbs up some.

Just since Saturdy i've noticed that she would run around the tank really really fast with her mouth hanging open, followed by biting a huge mouthful of aspen and start thrashing around violently... as if she was having a seizure / spasam / convuslion of some sort. Then she lays completely limp with her head at some odd angle. I take her out and she barely moves for about 5 minutes then removes normal activity after 5 mins.

I immediately took her out of the room with the rest of my snakes and put her in a small enclousre with paper towels, a water bowl, and a hide. She is still doing it.

I just took some pictures and I can't find anything wrong with her! I called the vet on FRIDAY nad they can't get me in until THURSDAY! I'm gonna call up tomorrow and beg if I can get in sooner.. i'm really thinking this is something neurological.

Oh.. no signs of mites or anything like that.

ANY HELP WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED! THX! -Chris

Here's a picture of her when she was healthy

this is with her mouth open sitting in my hands after one of the fist spasams

this is her lying on the carpet after one of the spasams

I see 2 distinct possibilities here:

1. The enclosure of the snake is much too warm. Snakes that are adapted to cooler climates, such as the Black Ratsnake (the licorice stick actually is a mutant Black Ratsnake), have problems with being exposed to extremely high temperatures. The snakes goes off feed, gets extremely active and regurgitates. If this goes on for too long, neurological symptomes may occur like those you described in your message listed above. Check the temperature and check the color of the tongue (white or a light shade of grey isn't good).

Lower the temperature immediately and give the snake a couple of weeks to recover.

2. If it isn't the temperature, it could very well be Ophidian Paramyxo Virus. All the symptoms as described in your message agree with the typical symptoms associated with OPV carriers, and in recent years this virus has become quite abundant. Any recently aquired snakes in your collection? Any neotropical boids (Boa, Corallus, Epicrates) in your collection? Handled any snakes recently in a reptile store or reptile exchange? (Not only should you wash your hands, but you should also take a shower and change clothes before handling any of your snakes!)

Unfortunately, the disease can only be tested clinically by killing the snake. If you decide to let a skilled veterinarian do this, and the results of the examination turns out positive, then all other snakes in your collection should be treated with Colombovac immediately.

I hope this helps. Greetings,

Herman Bronsgeest.

Well, I found her dead this afternoon, after a morning of calling every reptile vet in a 75 mile radius.

I've had the temperatures constant at 85-87 on the hot side, and about 77-80 on the cool side (she's only about 20 inches)

This OPV has gotten me concerned now. The most recent snake I have added to my collection was a chondro back in january. However, they are all (or all were) living literally right next to each other. (put a picture of the enclosure at the bottom of the post.)

Will it hurt to get my snakes treated with the Colombovac medicene just to be safe? What price figures am i looking at on this?

and No, I haven't been around any boids or anything

Herman is probably correct but just one more thought. Have you used any pesticides in or around your snakes? I had a mite infestation about 5 years ago that I just could not stop so I decided to use a "commercial" pesticide to get rid of mites. Well for some reason this product affected one of my snakes and it displayed the same symptoms as yours. It would not eat well, would flail around, bite himself or the aspen, and eventually died.
Just another thought, TravisG

Nope, no pesticides whatsoever

I recall that she was your first snake and you have my sympathy in trying to figure out the cause of her death. The symptoms do sound like something neurological, though the thrashing and gaping can come at the end of a respiratory infection as well. The temps you mentioned are higher than I typically keep N.A. rat snakes at (usually I aim for 72-75 cool side and 80-85 warm side).

To be on the safe side, I'd treat all of your snakes as if they are potential carriers of disease and separate them as much as possible from any contact with one another (no sharing of husbandry items like cleaning utensils for the water bowls or cages, disinfecting cages thouroughly, washing hands between handling each snake etc...)

Good luck with your other snakes. Were you able to at least have a vet perform a necropsy to try to determine cause of death?
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Lora

Yes, colubrids also are sensitive to OPV, as well as elapids, crotalids and other vipers, as well as pythons and boas. Throughout the world, entire collections have been wiped out by this disease. It is know as a highly infective agent. The problem lies in the long period between the actual infection and the early symptoms, which can also be quite difficult to determine as such. It is generally believed that stress caused by environmental changes, such as a higher or lower temperature, triggers the onset of the disease. It could take years for such a thing to happen, and by that time your entire collection may be infected.

It can happen to anyone. About 6 months ago I purchased a truly magnificent adult pair of white oak Pantherophis obsoletus spiloides. Because I knew the guy, it didn't seem very likely that these animals might be infected by anything as serious as OPV. Three months later the first symptoms emerged, - the same symptoms as described in your message by the way -, and a few weeks later both animals died. Fortunately, because I always take great precaution with newly aquired snakes (I lost an entire collection of rattlesnakes in the early '90), none of my other animals got infected. Before she died, however, the female laid 14 eggs, all of which have hatched and none of them have shown any symptoms (well, at least until now...).

So, yes I think you should treat all your animals. It could kill the rest of your ratsnakes and it definately will kill your chondro (pythons are notoriously sensitive to OPV). All enclosures should be cleaned thoroughly (bleach), all cage furniture should be destroyed. The medicine itself really isn't that expensive (it is commonly used to treat pigeons), I don't know the exact prices but we are talking about a couple of dollars per animal. Well worth the effort, I'd like to add.