Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Anyone have info on the guy from NERD's table who was busted. What happened to him and his animals? Also, any info on other arrests at Daytona would be appreciated.

Thanks

n/p

The state went around checking on who actually owned animals at the tables. If there were animals at a table that didn't belong to the actual vendor ie.....on consignment, the person who they belonged to needed a Florida license to exhibit and sell reptiles. They were a few CB spilotes rat snakes that were on Kevins permit but it didn't matter if they were someone elses other then Kevins. Two others at different tables were arrested for leopard geckos also. What a trip.....

These people had to post $500.00 bail which NERD posted for him....all of the cash he had was taken away and NERD gave him money to get by for the weekend and to get home, and now he has to go back to florida for a court appearance sometime in the future.

Next year the state says that every single animal has to come with records dating back to birth and what the parents were....meaning wc, cb, or cbb. I really don't see that working because you can have a record of 100 baby leopard geckos, but how would they know if you sold the 100 babies already and the ones currently at the show were different....doesn't make sense.
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Matt Lerer
'Ghi Reptiles'
'Ghi Arboreals'

Yea, That SUCKs a Buddy of mine got busted for pretty much the same thing. It seem a little petty for them to bust people for that, I think the snakes on the Table should be covered by the guy who rented the table and even more so if they were on the list of that they require you to submit to them when you get your permit....It really suck when people are killing people and getting away with it, I guess it is because they( officers) are to busy arresting someone for selling a snake or turtle.....That sucks and we Pay taxes for them to do that, what we need to do is contact our SENATORS and get these stupid laws reversed so they can go get REAL CRIMINALS. Just my 2 cent, Thanks David
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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)

State lawmakers not federal.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

I agree with you there, if someone brings a vender animals to sell it should be covered under the venders permit.

Steve
Serpent's Den

Im am a Police Officer, and I agree there are more important crimes. I also agree that these officers are doing their job. They are Florida Fish and Game Officers, which means they are doing exactly what they are suppose to do....check licenses and make sure no protected species are being sold illegally. Yes it sucks someone got busted for Leopard Geckos, but they were obviously doing something illegal. I write maybe 10 traffic tickets a month(we have no quota), and the ones I actually write are for stupidity of the driver or due to the imparement of the elderly person that cant even see over the steering wheel. So basicly I justify them getting a ticket or reexam so I dont have to work the traffic homicide investigations. Thats just my .02 cents. Shawn

In my opinion it is just another way for the state to get FUNDS, They have always got to find away to get into OUR pockets, It just sucks and WE the PEOPLE are the ONLY one that can come together and STOP all this BULL CRAP. More of my 2 cents.
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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)

Wonder how many paid sales tax on what they purchased at show?
Did the vendors have sales tax licenses?
At one time I had a VA, NY, MD, PA licenses at one time....pain.
I felt like an agent for the states. Now just PA only.
My real question would be is "How many breeders claim/report on what they sell on their state and federal income tax?"

You never know when "big brother" will tap your shoulder!
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

Simple as that. You can dislike it, but they are put into place for a reason.

It has never been enforced. It's always been a gray area. Why would they suddenly enforce a law this year in such a way. Why wouldn't they give warnings and a cease and desist order and try to educate? We have, for the past 10 years, sold on consignment, and never been questioned. The person who owns the table should be able to sell what they wish. Seems to me they are making up the rules as they go. I've always heard they hit this show so hard because they don't like Wayne Hill. None of the other Florida shows have FWC show up and create such a mess. Next year with the birth origin records required will make many not do the show. Too much effort. They want to shut Wayne Hill down. Simple as that.

I dont know if I missed something, but when the officer came to my table he asked one question. Can I see your State License? I then turned and dug it out and presented it. He reviewed the names,animals allowed, and dates. He said I like your business name and have a nice day. That was it. I just think when there may be something that isnt listed on the license or you dont have one is when you might have a issue. Also if the animal isnt yours you are selling it for someone else. You are going around the law. Yes its easier, but its defeats the purpose of the license in the first place. If Im wrong please educate me. Ill listen. Shawn

What is strictly reptiles going to put on their license inventory? Under species, "Everything I can get my hands on". What am I going to put on mine? Ball Pythons. But, what if a week before the show, someone trades a pair of womas for some pastels? I want to now sell the womas. Can't I put them on the table? What about not on the table. Can I sell them at all before the next time I apply for a license? The license says to possess Class III wildlife for exhibition or public sale. Not "to possess only wildlife that I produced"

CLASS III Reptiles.....Good point.....I wonder if a good lawyer would get you off in that case where you got arrested for BS charges. Thanks David
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1.0 Pied(04)(RDR)...Man that was a nice one...gone
1.0 Cinnamon Pastel(Bryan Kollwitz)(05)
2.0 Mojave Ball pythons(05)
0.1 Spider Ball(04)(RDR)
1.0 Butterscotch Ghost(04)
1.0 Albino(04)(RDR)
4.2 Pastels(03's)(04's)(ASF,Graziani,Bell lines)
2.8 Orange Granites(05)
1.0 Yellow Belly(04)(Ian G)
2.0 Yellow Belly(05)(unproven)
1.3 Yellow belly(unproven)(02,03,04's)
2.0 100% HET CLOWN(04's)(MHMR)
3.3 100% het albinos(03's)(high contrast bell line)
0.1 poss Het Albino(03's)
2.0 100% het pieds(03's)(Vin Russo,CRE)
0.2 100% het pieds(03's)(04's)(RDR,TWL)
1.2 Poss het pieds(03's)(PETE KAHL)
2.1 Poss het pieds(00's)(01's) hoping to get PIEDS this year(Vin Russo, Pete Kahl)
25 Normal adult females
60 04 females
15 normal mixed 03's
20 Assorted weird ball pythons 04's
13 baby 2005 PASTELS just HATCHED...4-8-05 and 5-10-05 (O left)

Sounds like they need to move the show to a less legislated state. Are any of the other big shows in states that don’t require permits?

In 1995 I ran a small show in Delaware....NO SALES TAX!!!!!
I purchased a permit for the entire show from the Department of Agriculture.
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RicK @ BbI

Ball Boutique,Inc.
Proud sponsor of this forum

They have been showing up to a lot of local shows. More than before. There are always laws on the books the enforcement has just gotten tighter recently.

I think that must be the way Colorado does it, if any permits are required they are issued to the show organizer. Of course it's always hard to tell as animal laws are notorious for being unknown, sporadically enforced, and open to interpretation. You are lucky if you can get the same answer from two different people in the same enforcing agency.

Sure Florida has a right to require permits and even extreme documentation but the consequences should include vendors and organizers considering moving to different states.

Or Colorado or Montana (no sales tax). All are centrally located so everyone would basically have to travel the same distance. Very few if any reptile laws and G&F out here aren't pricks.

Sean

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Heart Mountain Herps

Hi, I'm Donnie Smith, better known to most as Morti.

I posted this on another site, but I wanted to put it here as well to avoid any confusion about these events:

It's like this,

For the past 2 years, my wife and I have worked at NERD's table at the Daytona show. This year I had 7 snakes available to sell: 5 Tiger Rat snakes (Spilotes pullatus pullatus) and 2 Irian Jaya Carpet Pythons (Morelia spilota variegata). I made arrangements with Kevin and Kara to get these animals put on NERD's permit so that they could be displayed and sold at NERD's table. The way I understood it, this should have been all that was required as they were then considered by Kevin and I to be on consignment to NERD. To me the fact that I was going to be working at NERD's table was irrelevant.

Sunday at approximately 11:00 AM, an officer from fish and wildlife came to the table asking to see the permit. For whatever reason he addressed this request to me. I directed him to Kevin saying that he was the owner, he had the permit. He stated he also needed to see "breeding records or receipts" for every animal at the table. While he and Kara were discussing the fact that this information had never been requested before and that they did not have any such records, I pulled out the breeding records for the snakes that I provided for NERD to sell, as it is my standard practice to provide basic info such as birthdates, feeding, and shedding records to anyone who purchases my animals.

This, it would turn out, was the wrong thing to do.

The officer examined these records and was again like "This is great for these animals but what about the rest of them?" and again I pointed out that he should ask Kevin or Kara as I didn't breed those animals.

After a while he wandered off. At around 12:15 PM, he returned and pulled me aside. He informed me that in order to lawfully sell or exhibit animals, I should have my own permit with my own name on it. He allowed me to remove the animals in question from the table and he proceeded to write me a citation. He informed me that I would be transported to jail where I would have to pay a $500 bail/bond to be released. Kevin generously supplied me with the cash. The officer informed me that residents of Florida were simply written a citation while non-residents would be transported to jail. I will have to return for court in October.

There was quite a long wait while his commanding officer returned with two other people who were cited for the same violation. After a wait of about an hour and a half total, I was taken outside, frisked, handcuffed, and transported to Volusia County Jail where I was processed as a criminal, finger-printed, had my mug shot taken, and had all my personal possessions confiscated. I was then put in a "Holding cell" with two other offenders, one passed out and snoring, the other very intoxicated. The other two gentlemen arrested at the expo at the same time as me were put in the "drunk tank" with me.

After what seemed like a stupid amount of time, we were finally released. The gentleman who owned the table from which the two other permit offenders were arrested graciously offered me a ride back to the expo from jail. I had other arrangements, but this worked out better as I didn't want anyone to have to leave the show early on my account.

Incidentally, the biggest silver lining that I have seen in this situation is just how wonderfull everyone that I have spoken with in the herp community has been. Not just with Kevin and Kara, whom I already consider close friends, but with people who I didn't even really know. I received more kind words and encouragement from perfect strangers than I thought was possible.

I am very sorry that I had to put my friends and family though this situation, as I would have gladly bought my own permit if I had known that it was required. If the officer had simply told me to remove these animals from the table, I would have also done so willingly. I really wish that I would have known all of this before.

That is why I am posting this now: I don't want anyone to have the same problem that I did. If you want to share a table with someone else at a Florida show, make absolutely sure that each person has their own permit. That is the interpretation of the law that Florida F&W is going by... this year.

Unfortunately your eagerness to help hurt you in this case. I still dont know why he would ask for breeding records unless he was tipped off that someone was selling animals that didnt belong to them. I think the whole situation comes down to this. If you are selling them and the money is going to you you need a license. If you "had been" just working for Kevin and didnt have any animals on the table you would have been fine. If I was you I would not mention anything else about what you knew or didnt know and what occured where it can be recorded and used against you. I know the FWC looks at this site and even answers ads on the classifieds. I would think that there is other states that do this also.

Seems like a harsh consequence,for a simple mistake.Anyone could have made it. Can understand a fine, But hauling someone off to jail seems a bit over the top.

Hope it all is ironed out, and the whole episode becomes a good story to tell the grandkids someday..."Gramps Morti the outlaw herper"

Good Luck!
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"There is a fine line between a hobby and mental illness"
COLD BLOOD.........WARM HEART

I was standing right next to Donnie the entire time this was going down. It was pretty rediculous to see. The seemed to be sneaky about.

The two guys that were picked up w/ Donnie were the guys at the table right next to me. It was the one guys first time ever selling animals at a show and was a similar thing where he was sharing space w/ someone who had a lic. I asked them what was done and they said it was because other people in the past from out of state failed to pay fines or show up in court so they were cracking down

Now the really messed up thing is that in Florida and infraction like that is a mandatory court apperance down here in the sunshine state. they will have to fly/drive or whatever down here to pay a fine of, most likely $250.

It is unfortunate because everyone involved were very nic people that were selling legal animals in good health as opposed to some other people that mistreat and sell unhealthy animals. Good luck w/ this mess guys.

Jeremy

So sorry to hear about your troubles. It should have been a wonderful experience with low stress. I hope you documented everything that was said and happened to you along with times. You may need this information to help your case. While I understand there isn't much to dispute since you and the others were unaware of the requirements, it is always good practice to have everything documented.

Suggestion/Question: would it be possible if someone from each area hosting a show would help everyone out and list the requirements of each location on the forum? I am sure if each vendor called they could get this information when they registered, but sometimes, we do not even know what questions to ask and it is not always told to us. There are so many Gray areas in life today.

Carole