Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You

Times OnLine in the UK.......interesting.....a bit long......

gailT Jul 17, 2003 04:43 PM

Opinion

July 17, 2003

I side with the Yanks: my beautiful relationship with Europe has been marred
Magnus Linklater

I think of myself as a fully paid-up European. Studied in France and Germany; modern languages at university; favourite film hero, Alain Delon; favourite actress Romy Schneider; favourite holiday destination, Andalusia; favourite food, vitello tonnato; just about capable of holding my own on subsidiarity; a veritable bore on the merits of German motorways and the French TGV. I had assumed that, whatever the political impediments, my own journey to the heart of Europe would be simple, straightforward and, above all, enjoyable.
But my beautiful relationship has been damaged. A splinter of glass was blown into it last week in a fine hotel, high on a Swiss mountain, looking out over Lake Geneva, with views towards France on the other side, and Italy hovering in the distance. It was as close to the beating heart of Europe as I needed to be. The sun shone, the water sparkled, and from below us, in Montreux, the sounds of the annual jazz festival floated gently upwards. Around me swilled an international, but largely European, group of well-intentioned souls debating the future of the media. Among us also, were several distinguished Americans.

It was, I suppose, to be expected that the war in Iraq should loom large in our discussions. What I had not anticipated was that this single event should now so clearly define European attitudes, that opposition to the war was more or less assumed and hostility to Washington was held to be synonymous with informed opinion. The Americans were defensive, the British divided. The issue was debated many times, but it took shape, for me, in the course of a lengthy and brilliant discourse on the future of the market economy, from a French speaker. While outlining thoughts on financial regulation that would have sat perfectly well on this page, he devoted one section of his speech to the “symbolism” of the September 11 attack on the World Trade Centre. It was of course, he said, an evil act, but the twin towers, as symbols of Western capitalism, had become an almost inevitable target for terrorists; their collapse had something of the Old Testament about it — the razing of a monument to untrammelled power. If we were to counter future threats, we should create different symbols — a form of capitalism that would be less divisive than the American version.

It slipped in so neatly, so rationally, that no one, not even the Americans, listening intently through their earphones, thought to challenge it. Indeed, it was only as I considered it afterwards that I realised what had been said. The implication, not openly stated, was that US economic power was, in itself, a justification for terrorism, that if it was not modified, then it might expect more of the same, and that Europe, if it was wise, should adopt a different model if it was to avoid similar attacks. No mention of 3,000 lives lost; no condemnation of the worst terrorist act of our age; instead, the unmistakable whiff of compromise hovering in the air.

I felt a twinge of Anglo-Saxon resentment. I realised these views were widely held on the radical Left in Britain, but if they were now part of mainstream opinion in Europe, things had gone further than I had imagined. As it happened, I had been in Italy on the day of the attacks, and had been overwhelmed by the spontaneous demonstrations of sympathy for America and outrage against the act. Those expressions of solidarity seemed now to be distant memories. In the aftermath of the war in Iraq, they had been succeeded by a rejection, not just of military action itself, but of US values as well. I asked an American journalist what he thought. He was more puzzled than angry. “What have these guys against us?” he asked.

If this was a criticism of America, then Britain, presumably, was included as well. As a good European, I remembered my French: “Cet animal est méchant. Quand on l’attaque, il se defend.” This animal is very bad. When it is attacked it defends itself. I decided, on this occasion at least, to line up with the Yanks. I yield to no one in my muddled confusion over the war — I was in favour of military action, pleased at the fall of Saddam Hussein, angry at being conned over WMD, appalled at what has happened in Iraq since then. But I cannot leap nimbly on to a European bandwagon if it so lightly brushes aside a terrorist outrage.

Many Americans confess to being traumatised by what happened — just as much as we Europeans might be if the planes had flown into the Vatican, or the Elysée Palace, the Reichstag or the Palace of Westminster. If we are incapable of understanding that, then we have lost the essential ingredient of humanity that I once understood to be inseparable from the European ideal. And if we cannot regain it, then I, for one, will count myself out.

Join the Debate on this article at comment@thetimes.co.uk

Replies (20)

terdball Jul 17, 2003 04:54 PM

Thanks for sharing that!

scalawag Jul 17, 2003 06:11 PM

How about how the creepy European sympathized with the terrorists in their disdain for "Western Capitalism" as conveyed in his comment about the inevitability of an attack on the Twin Towers? It was EXPECTED, because many Europeans and terrorists alike view Capitalism, the only form of government based on individual rights, as evil. The symbol of production and individual freedom was something, to them, that needed to be destroyed.

Well Stoeckl and Herpes consultant, you've probably figured out by now why you and your spineless buddies in Europe are the object of the venom of the majority of Americans. No doubt you share the same views of the speaker mentioned in the article Gail posted. Since you don't like what this country represents, why don't you both remove yourselves from anything American? We won't miss you!

Nice job Gail!

scalawag

H+E Stoeckl Jul 17, 2003 08:02 PM

You are a telling illustration how well government propaganda works on people that are only equipped with an average education and intelligence.

You are not able to notice that the U.S. government screwes up one thing after the other. Some examples?

Rezha Shah Pahlavi: First supported by the U.S afterwards they dropped him and plastered the way for Ayatollah Chomeini who took the people in the U.S. embassy as hostages for years

Noriega: First supported by the U.S., oops - wrong judgement, drop it

Taliban: First supported by the U.S., oops - wrong judgement, drop it

Saddam Hussein: First supported by the U.S., oops - wrong judgement, drop it

Facing all these great decisions do you really think that the war on Iraq was a good idea? And you really believe that the Iraq posed a threat to the US?

You should apply to get in the guiness book of records for being the most naive U.S. citizen.

The interests of the U.S. in the Middle East are:

1. taking control of the region and the oil
2. helping Israel to protect themselves (it at all Iraq would only have been a threat to Israel)

And at last you should face the fact that the U.S. are asking the "spineless buddies in Europe" for help now because they have serious problems in Iraq. They want the "old Europe" to support with troops there (just watch the news). By the way, an U.S. general today admitted that it is a guerilla war in Iraq meanwhile. And such a war can not be won, because all modern weapons and all superiority fail here.
I only hope that the politicians in Germany are not dumb enough to send troops after an UN mandate (which will most certainly be the next gambit in the play).

If you want to support, you should try and sing the national anthem in Bagdad, maybe that helps. Maybe the natives there will get numb of awe and drop their weapons when such a patriot chimes in.

There are great people in the U.S. and I have many friends there. Former U.S. governments accomplished great things and they helped a lot. But not everything that happens over there is based on divine inspiration (as your president who was elected with the second most votes makes you believe).
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

gailT Jul 17, 2003 08:56 PM

Why is it that Americans that believe in the U.S. Constitution are considered by you to be of average intelligence and to have had an average education? I was going to let you slide Hermann, but you need an education yourself. I wouldn't throw stones while living in a glass house. Would you like me to bring up Germany's history....not something I would want if I were you. You are spewing the far left liberal/socialist propaganda that dribbles out of every socialist democrat in this country. Oh, but because that is your point of view that is the correct view. I don't know where you are getting your information, but no one in America wants aid from Germany or France. I am going to post an article that was written 2 years ago by a Cuban/American doctor. He wrote one of the best articles I have ever read explaining the differences in governments around the world. I suggest you read it fully and educate yourself. You might also think of coming down off that high pedestal you have yourself perched upon. Being pompous and condescending is not becoming to a gentleman.

H+E Stoeckl Jul 17, 2003 09:29 PM

was not against the american constitution or people who believe in it, but on persons like scalawag who are a shame for their country, in my opinion.

Read his posts and you will see that he is calling names instead of offering reasonable arguments.

So please regard my posting as a reply to scalawag, not as an attack to people who believe in the U.S. constitution (which is often treaded with the legs by the politicians, same as here).

Or am I wrong?
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

scalawag Jul 17, 2003 10:08 PM

I was calling names AND offering reasonable arguments. You seem to be incapable of offering ANY argument!

scalawag

gailT Jul 17, 2003 10:54 PM

I certainly do not want to come across as anti-European, but I have to defend my country and my beliefs. America is a wonderful country full of wonderful people....and I believe that there is no country that can compare to the United States of America. We welcome everyone and we try to understand others. For years we thought that if we ignore the terrorists they will eventually go away. That was totally incorrect. By ignoring the signs and events that were happening over several decades, the people that want to see death to the infidels took our "turn the other cheek position" as a weakness. When we finally take a stand and defend ourselves and speak out against their hatred of us, many Europeans showed their true colors and took the side of the terrorists. Americans will die defending our freedom and they will also go to their death fighting for the freedom of people from other countries. How many Europeans would die defending our freedom here in America. I bet not a one. How many Iraqi's would die defending America. I bet not a one. But even so, Americans will still defend the rights of others even if it means their death. And so I have to defend those who have given their life so I can have such a wonderful life and enjoy the America that so many brave and wonderful people have died for.

scalawag Jul 17, 2003 11:04 PM

Bulls eye!

scalawag

PS, Just like 9/11 changed our attitude towards terrorism, after seeing the true colors of Europeans regarding their sympathy for terrorism, we have a new attitude towards Europeans. Make sense Stoeckl?

H+E Stoeckl Jul 18, 2003 06:40 AM

It's a shame when the citizen of a nation support everything that their government decides even if it's wrong and stupid.
You only have to look at the German history to see where such a support can lead to. No comparison of the U.S. government with the Hitler regime meant!

And maybe you have failed to notice that German soldiers already died for YOU in Afghanistan. Or do you think we have troops there because the weather is fine there?
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

RoyerReptiles Jul 18, 2003 07:44 AM

Herman,

I suspect that the Germans would only send support to the action in Iraq if it was of some benefit to them. Lets face it...that's the only thing people are going to die for. Americans went there to protect themselves...why did the Germans go? If you say because the U.S. asked them to...then does that mean the German government is under the control of America? Or does Germany recognize America as more of an asset than Iraq?

RoyerReptiles Jul 18, 2003 07:58 AM

On another note, some people keep bringing up the continued attacks on American soldiers in Iraq, noting that American military are continuing to die. Let's see...they have killed miliary members since this began. It is sad, but it's a fact of life. You don't go to war expecting everyone to come home.

The problem with your reasoning is this: this year in our country, over 100 times that many people will be killed by others for NO REASON AT ALL.

RoyerReptiles Jul 18, 2003 08:00 AM

As of this morning, 224 American deaths, 77 were accidents.

scalawag Jul 18, 2003 09:55 AM

"It's a shame when the citizen of a nation support everything that their government decides even if it's wrong and stupid."

Stoeckl, you are obviously paranoid and resentful towards governments, and You should be! You come from a place with a very dark history, with far-reaching consequences. Your country still has a lot of growing up to do, and maybe, decades from now, you may actually have a government that actually gets it, like we do.

You have to stop PROJECTING your own paranoia about your government onto our government. You are comparing apples to oranges, and you are so very wrong.

scalawag

gailT Jul 18, 2003 10:37 AM

Because one stands up for their country does not mean they agree with every thing that the government does. And because you don't agree with our government at this particular time, does not make it stupid. I know the German history and Hitler wasn't the only leader of Germany that was an arrogant bastard. Don't you for one minute tell me that German soldiers went to Afghanistan to defend America. That is absolute CRAP. Germany went there to show the nations of the world that they too will not let terrorists rule the planet. There is not one chance in hell that they went there to defend the U.S. Despite what you say Hermann, Germans do not like Americans. My brother has lived there going on 7 yrs. My cousin has taught English there for 10+ years. The Germans tolerate the Americans because of the money that U.S. tourists spend in Germany every year and other monetary reasons. That is not to say that there isn't an occasional German who might actually like some Americans, but in general as a whole the German population does not care for Americans or the English.

poosphere Jul 18, 2003 05:25 PM

It's only "wrong" and "stupid" when you look at it from the point of view of a peabrain. Obviously the only way you could ever comprehend the general feeling of the U.S. is if your neighborhood is blessed with a terroristic act such as 9/11. Of course I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

terdball Jul 18, 2003 12:45 AM

Yeeeeehhhaaaaawwwwwww!!! Bravo!

scalawag Jul 17, 2003 09:59 PM

Here's some "insight" for you: Even the most naive US citizen has more "insight" than you'll ever have.

Care to discuss the government "screw ups" in the long, pathetic history of Germany? (We haven't forgotten how you creeps acted regarding the war in Iraq either)

It's a scary thought that YOU have friends in the US, although we do have our fair share of disillusioned parasites here too. Thankfully, they are in the minority.

Is that YOU suggesting that I "just watch the news"? Well Stoeckl, I wouldn't want to get misled by all the "propaganda" that YOU have warned us about, would I?

Germany would have begged to get into Iraq AFTER the war, hoping to generate some income. Bush may have been forced into playing politics with the scrawny, crybaby countries like France, and your own. However the majority of Americans would LOVE to see you have nothing to do with it.

This just in Stoeckl, the major war is over. The US accomplished it's primary objective. We are safer than we were when Saddam was around. Ha Ha! You go ahead and make a bigger jackass of yourself (if that's possible) spouting off about your "guerilla" war.

This just in Stoeckl, we pay for the oil we BUY from the Middle East (because we're Capitalists). Sure we have an interest in that region, and sure we protect that interest, AND NOT AT ANYONE ELS'E EXPENSE.

Hitler wasn't such a bad representative for you and your sick country Stoeckl. You are one misguided individual.

scalawag

H+E Stoeckl Jul 18, 2003 06:32 AM

And furhtermore: Do a research about "Godwins law".
I am sure that you have never heard about it because it would require a minimum of general education.

Then you'll find out that you have lost the discussion.

Moreover: Yes, america is so much safter now. And because it is so safe now every day a U.S. soldier leaves Iraq in a coffin.

With this stupid war you have boosted the hatred of arabian terrorists on your country. I am afraid you are much less safer than half a year ago.
Boa constrictor

-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

scalawag Jul 18, 2003 09:46 AM

Wrong again Stoeckl, it's the "arabian terrorist" who are much less safer now. We haven't had a problem here since 9/11. Does that bother you brainiac? Ha Ha Stoeckl!

Again commie boy, the war in Iraq is over. I know that it was over before you had hoped and expected, and you probably need more time to process the bad news. But if and when you finally wake up, you'll see that in the attempt to establish a new government (anywhere) there, unfortunately, will be casualties. At least the US is trying (something that can't be said about YOUR pathetic country).

You pose as some high tower intellectual, but you know nothing. Nice try though.

scalawag

steve.AC Aug 05, 2003 04:05 AM

Its over as long as the American soldiers stay there, and we know that they want to leave ASAP. and when they do will you feel safe that the war is really over, for real will you.

And why dont you try and answer this one without using your list of high school swear words, go on try it once I dare you

steve

Site Tools