Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In that paper below, it made reference of "goini types" be refered to as, lowland forms.

Whats very interesting is, in the west, striped, melanistic types, are often lowland, riverine, edge of marshes, grasslands surrounding these. As well as modern habitats like farmlands surrounding marshy areas. Banded types occur in these areas and more xeric higher elevations, as well as seemingly dry xeric deserts.

Also, black kings are found at lower elevations. Whereas, splendida types occur in the same areas and higher.

Of interest, getulus occur from sea level, to over 6500 feet. The high elevation types of getulus occur right with L.m.tharyi, in areas above Doctor Arroyo and Galena. Thanks FR

Interesting. I have heard others talk about pattern tendencies in kings related to habitat. In Ky L.g.nigra we have noticed that even though there are exceptions most kings found in upland forest in well drained areas away from permanent water sources are usually very black dorsally with little or no pattern such as this one.

Those found in lowland areas especially close to swamp and marsh are usually much more heavily patterned such as this one.

I would have to guess that selective pressure plays a role in all this. I would be interested to hear more about upland and lowland populations of getula throughout their range from others.

With the ANF kings, it is my understanding that the current thoughts are they were formerly an insular population of L.g.getula that through separation from the parent flock selected for the pale patternless morphs perhaps due to the exposed light colored sand areas they lived at. When this population was repatriated with those from the mainland they were genetically swamped by regular getula thus the wide variation often seen within kings from this area. For what its worth I find this theory to be more plausible than the old idea of ANF kings being intergrades between getula and floridana. What ever the case, it sure makes for good discussion. Phil

I am not a believer in the way most think if intergration. I am more prone to think of snakes in a genetic disparsal.

The problem is, populations have expanded and contracted more then once, so to think if them is a clear point to point way is most likely in error.

I think you may have a better understanding if you look at Australian reptile species. I get the feeling they have so many species, yet many are so very similar to eachother, but still different. I would imagine its because that continent has gone thru many waves of climatic changes. As well as weather changes.

About your highlands and lowerlands, what kind of elevations are we talking here. A few hundred feet here and there? or a few thousand feet?

Also what is the flora differences, as I believe this is very important with the western kings. The stripe kings seem to inhabit very grassy areas with very dense vegetation. Or at least center around those types of areas. Thanks FR

The elevation is not as remarkable here as in some places with the range being from a couple of hundred feet above sea level to perhaps several thousand feet. I am more inclined to think soil types and flora may be contributing factors. Often the upland areas in which I spoke of are dry ridges with mixed forest and drier soil types. The lowlands are those areas adjacent to the swamps and marshes where the soil is much denser and at times can be muck like. In todays world tall grass fields are often found in both the uplands and lowland areas but much of the rest of these distinctive habitats are in tact. There are no absolutes as far as pattern type is concerned as I have seen a number of exceptions in both type places, but there does seem to be definite trends. Interestingly enough the typical Ky king in most areas where there is typical field and forest is usually some place in between and most kings here fit this description. Neither solid black nor heavily patterned but rather black with varying amounts of faint patterning. I think it would be neat if a image gallery could be put together with contributions from coast to coast showing what variation herpers are seeing in the field in their areas. Phil
Official Black Kingsnake Website

i always hear about higher elevations=more melaninistic specimens in a population(black milks,a few other central american milks;timber rattlers)....all for thermoregulation purposes...this does'nt touch on the issue of camoflouge,which i would think is equally important....both of these theories fit in this case though-the 'apalachicola lowlands' aka goini king coming from habitat both very low in elevation(no need for increased melanin to aid in thermoregulation) and areas of light colored soil

There are also diurnal black snakes found at low elevations, like Black coachwhips and eartern black racers. Black as a color can be used in many ways and is. FR

lol....yeah,i knew someone would get all upset about my metioning of timber rattlesnakes in a discussion of the goini king....i have to take exception-'innapropriate'?i don't think so;for that matter,neither is a comparison to any given herps from the entire continent of australia(seemed a little vague,but i think you were hinting at 'convergent evolution',right?)...as for black racers?yes,i have found them from sea level to over 3,000 feet...my point was that coloration serves multiple purposes,be it in a snake,salamander,fish or feline...

Please keep as close to the subject as possible.

The thread is about, First kingsnakes, then goini and their pattern. Then about the correlation between them and striped kings, and other abberant populations(coastal low elevation) like the L.A.airport kings(kinda melanistic but not black)etc.

Of course if you mentioned that a localized population of timbers had striped, blotched and patternless individuals, that would be of comparision. As the phoenix ground snakes do.

Also no one is upset with your comments, they just were not comparable. The reasons are as you mentioned, black or dark, has lots of different applications. Fortunately we are not talking about black in goini.

It does seem people like to make objections and use totally distant examples. I guess just to make objections. While you can think that all you want, how does it help us understand the problem. Heck, once I was having a discussion about monitors and the objector compared the monitors in that discussion to polar bears. I almost popped a roid on that one.(from laughing)

The point is, we already don't understand this, we do not need more reasons to not understand it more. What we need are things to help us understand it better. Cheers FR

polar bears/monitors-pretty good leap there,fr....have no idea what was being discussed,so that's out of context to me...i know those most likely to laugh in the face of another's comparison would come off as perhaps defensive,and at least a little close-minded....definitely not the best way to approach any scientific matter-even just while kicking some s#$%^t around on a herp website....as for your hemorrhoids,man i don't wanna know about them,try an ointment! or staying out of debates with others,lol

n/p

In eastern Verginia and NE North Carolina the kings found in low laying areas also tend to be darker with narrow bands. The wide banded phenotype that is so sought after is primarily found in higher dry and sandy areas.

a correlation is not a defining observation, just something of interest. So it does not have to be shot down or accepted. It only means something of possible interest for those who may want to investigate further.

Please consider, to take sides without information is not the best approach to understanding.

Personally I have found both Goini and striped kings in nature, to be sure, I am far more experienced with western kings. But please understand There is a correlation.

Also, I have asked many times, but no one will respond, is there any other differences other then color and pattern? Scale differences, scalation differences, structure differences, etc??????????? If not, then I surely do not see any arguement that goini is "different" It appears one of many, localized to an extent, color morphs that are so common with getulus and other species.

Consider, Sonoran ground snakes, in the Phoenix basin, they commonly occur in a striped morph, and banded morph and a patterless morph. Is there a correlation with this too??????? It does appear in almost the same variations, I wonder if there is a reason for this. Also consider in the tropics there are many polymorphic reptiles and anphibs.

I think for me to get serious about all this dicussion about goini, someone will have to point out why color and pattern alone makes this snake any different then so many others????? Thanks and again, just for your consideration, FR

I think for me to get serious about all this dicussion about goini, someone will have to point out why color and pattern alone makes this snake any different then so many others????? Thanks and again, just for your consideration, FR

Why does color and pattern make FL Kings different than Easterns? Why does it make Eastern Kings different from Black Kings? From Speckled Kings? etc...if you're saying all of these snakes are the same and we only have have different morphs so to speak, then why not call them all just one thing? Or is it we like to distinguish the differences amongst the populations especially since they do vary in color and pattern?

I think if you check out the keys, you will find scalation differences, like ventrals, subcaudals, scale rows and head scalation.

I feel a bit old, as we use to have to key snakes out, as not much was known about them. We often found odd things. Like I found the first black tharyi, how did I know if was a tharyi? Just a few hours earlier I found a splendida, in the same area. Thanks FR

ok,you have me lost,i admit it,fr....what is your point you are miking here-what does"thayeri"(spelling) have going for it so much in common with splendida?they don't even look alike....but i am listening...and yes i do agree,'keying something out' is not only a sure way to i.d. in the field;that's my favorite thing about my ancient copy of schmidt's 'field book of snakes'-the key to the genera....and did i hear you say you found the first melanistic thayeri? cool

'FR'-i don't think anyone here wants to shoot you or your correlation down;or even disagrees with there 'being a correlation' between snakes of the same species(???!).yes it is interesting to me,and obviously others,as this seems to be a very hot topic lately...as for real differences in scalation,struscture,etc.the answer i can see is no.but don't take my word for it,do some research,incl. some old books that recognized goini as a valid subspecies....p.s. let us know ahead of time in any responses/posts of yours if you are 'being serious',or if not,whether you plan to do so,and when...(?).no really,i do not think goinis warrant subspecific status;i just like 'em.don't know why,they are just very intriguing to me,right up there with(another comparision....sticticeps or temporalis)...guess i like the stumpers and head scratchers....

When you said ," I think for me to get serious about all this dicussion about goini, someone will have to point out why color and pattern alone makes this snake any different then so many others?????
Too often discussions end without anything but people on one of two sides, and we are back at square one. I for one do not know how to count scales to attempt to get to the bottom of an argument over specifics. Even if I did others would come up with a theory to prove me wrong. The whole color and pattern thing ends up making many contradict themselves. If a snake is from someone they know and trust color and pattern serve as an example of why they believe the snake to be what it is supposed to be. From another source the same color and pattern on the same snake means nothing. I have been busy with caring for hatchlings and just returned from Daytona and it was refreshing to get away from this for a while. Funny thing is what do you think I bought while there? A Goini! LOL!!!!!! I am sure I will be back to annoy most on here again soon. I have a lot of catching up to do. Tom Stevens

easy,tom.....best way to count(dorsal) scales is ,go to midbody,and count from the first row on either side(closest to ventral scales).and count them in either a zigzagging pattern all the way accross;or diagonally,then at midbody,'zig' once,forming a 'v' shape of scales that you counted,the apex bing at th top of the body.

I was just saying it in the sense I have never had a reason to learn how to do it. What pisses me off is if I am not mistaken Frank is mentioning that to better understand why in this example, Goini, should be different than other Kings....a Goini should be thoroughly examined and compared to other Kings. But all we do here is argue...and no one has the time or patience to count scales or whatever may help determine Goini to be what they think it actually is. It just keeps going back to color and pattern. I appreciate your reply though, thanks Tom Stevens

yeah tom i have to agree with you-this is definitely exasperating,and i admittedly fall in the trap of letting my emotions,and passions for certain stuff(goini kings have always fascinated me since first seeing and reading about them in my first copy of conant's/collins' 'bible'),get mixed up in what is most productive when purely objective....also,speaking for myself,i am here to gather and share information,and even ideas;and the line between 'sharing information' and 'spewing opinion' is sometimes thin.....and then when egos and/or (false?)pride rear their ugly heads,sh$%^t hits the fan,and things just get ugly,etc...i have re-read some of my former posts on this goini debate(s),and i a)unfortunately am sort of dissapopinted that i did'nt pick up hardly any juicy tidbits (FACTS) about THESE SNAKES THEMSELVES-but i did like/appreciate the posting of the 'herpetologica' paper on goinis(sorry,slipped my mind who posted that-but thank you!good hard 'evidence' is always helpful,or at the very least interesting).....b)stand by my posts and what they say,as not erroneous....however,the remark i made about having several sources describing goinis as an isolated pocket of former integrades betw. eastern and florida kings-as of yet,i can't find/produce those references.(still convinced i read that,just can't say where,lol....sorry)all this means i still just don't know much more about their origin than before this debate began here!....also noted while researching this(as may have been already pointed out)several species of plants and animals are found in the heart of goini country-found there and nowhere else-which obviously is evidence this area was formerly isolated from the mainland.....this won't change my fondness for them at all-in fact may just increase it,and hopefully may have 'lit a flame' under someone else for these snakes,which could lead to hopefully more answers about them.

Ya know I have done plenty of fighting on here with no regrets other than the fact great posts are ruined by being deleted. I see people pushing other peoples buttons hoping they will lose their tempers and get banned for running their mouth on here. I won't fall for that....and as of late I have been to busy to participate much. I am going to post pics of a new snake this weekend that will drive people nuts! It is gonna be cool any which way but the drama that follows these pics will be worth tuning in LOL. And all useful info from you and anyone is also worth tuning in for. This is a great forum. Only lately has it been off the hook. It erupts here n there but there's a lot of knowlegeable people on here. ttyl Tom Stevens

No...the BEST way is to count scales on a perfectly shed skin....IMHO.
John Lassiter

With the Cal Kings where there are these melanistic and striped forms there are also completely typical banded kings among them and these populations containing striped and melanistic are completely surrounded by typical banded kings.
The difference with "goini" is that the patternless and striped individuals occur within populations of blotched individuals which are in turn surrounded by floridana on one side and easterns on the other. I have no experience here so somebody may correct me but typical floridana and typical easterns do not occur with the striped and patternless but rather grade into the blotched form and then within the blotched form are the striped and patternless.