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Looking for information: My Spider's head shakes/trembles

autotunz Aug 24, 2005 02:57 PM

I posted this in the middle of an earlier thread and thought I would try again in a separate thread.

I recently purchased a female spider that is exhibiting an odd behavior. Her head shakes or trembles. We noticed this right after we got her and it seems most obvious when she is sitting still or slowly cruising around. It happens pretty much all the time. My wife described it as looking like she has Parkinson's. Also, when she's eating, the first 1/4 to 1/3 of her body is inverted upside down and she appears to be struggling. She's eaten OK so far, but it's obviously of concern to me as a new dad.

Is this a common Spider trait? Is it something to worry about, should I have concerns in breeding her? Or am I worrying unnecessarily?

Any information is GREATLY appreciated!!

Tim

Replies (51)

toshamc Aug 24, 2005 03:09 PM

Sounds like you probably got a bad one - I've heard some people say that theirs exhibited the spinning but outgrew it but I don't know if that's truth or someone trying to make less of the problem. Sorry.
-----
Tosha

"One of these days i am going to wake up..look around...and realize my place looks more like "Ace Venturas"s than my own." Coldthumb

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul "JP"
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 lizard rescued from vicious feline

Jbuggs500 Aug 24, 2005 03:31 PM

You said its from a big breeder and you have informed them already about the problem. I would contact them again with your concern and see what they say.. I doubt that it is something that can be out grown.. Hopefully the breeder will want to do right and fix the problem whether its a refund or exchange. As far as part of the snakes body flipping over while eating it may be the wobbling or it could just be the food items are to large and she is struggling how big is she and what are you feeding her. There is no information on if this wobbling effect is genetic or anything like that so nothing is known if it effects breeding. I have seen normal ball pythons do this in the past.
Jbugg

Eric Sandoval Aug 24, 2005 03:59 PM

I wouldn't worry about it, it's fairly common for spiders to exhibit some weird behaviors. I've never noticed it in any of the normal siblings from a spider breeding, although I havn't hatched a ton of them. It doesn't affect their feeding, breeding, etc and it does seem to affect them less with some size and age. As far as whether they should be bred is up to the person who owns them. Spiders that exhibit this trait produce spiders that don't and vice versa, so I don't think it will be fixed through line breeding(at least not anytime soon). Also I've noticed it doesn't seem to affect them until they get just a little size on them, so if you buy a baby that doesn't show any signs, it doesn't mean in a month or so it won't do it. My opinion is spiders make some of the best morphs around, these are cb animals that will never affect the wild population and because it doesn't seem to affect their overall health I don't consider it a big deal.

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

autotunz Aug 25, 2005 06:55 PM

I appreciate your information. I'm a little new to this and as a new "dad" I'm a little concerned. The breeder has been very accommodating to my position and I know we'll work something out if need be. As long as I know that it won't effect her health, that's really the main thing. If I can be fairly certain that she won't positively pass it along, then I'm ok with that. I do feel, however, that it should have been disclosed up front and I don't feel that market value is justifiable on a snake with "the shakes."

Thanks,

Tim

RandyRemington Aug 27, 2005 06:53 AM

The market value of spiders took a big drop the year before I first heard of the spinning issue per this site. At the time I thought it just had to do with the natural life cycle of the market growing past the point where a small group of breeders can fix a price but now I wonder if this issue wasn't becoming well known at that time even if not yet posted. It's very unfortunate that you personally where apparently not informed of this issue but I would say that at this point spinning is already figured into the market value of spiders. Sure there could still be variation in price between the worst spinners and the best non-spinners but depending on how common spinning is (I've seen varied informed posts on that subject) you may not have much grounds for complaining about the price. Maybe your best bet would be to either swap it for one that may or may not spin later (again depending on the unknown of how common this is) or return it for a refund and mark spider off your list if you aren't willing to chance the spinning at all. The whole issue is a tough call but at least due to threads like this most people are starting to be aware of the issue and so can begin to make informed decisions about starting spider projects.

autotunz Aug 27, 2005 10:24 AM

I agree, Randy. I've spoken with many breeders and Spider owners since I started this thread a couple of days ago. There is much speculation, but not a lot of hard data. One breeder refuses to sell Spiders because of the trait. He owns and breeds them to other morphs for the cool crosses they create, but will not do Spider/Spider breeding.

A couple of big breeders suggested that perhaps there should be two levels of pricing on Spiders based on wobblers and non-wobblers. It's hard to say, as no one can POSITIVELY state that it may or may not go away later or that it may or may not appear later on. Lots of conflicting information on that one. I personally feel that paying today's market price for a snake with a know gene defect isn't right and I should have been notified of the condition and allowed to make an educated decision rather than discovering it on my own, having to question it and dig to get to the truth.

Perhaps the best thing that has come of this discussion is that it is now more out in the open and hopefully potential buyers can be better informed. I would probably have passed on buying a Spider had I been told the truth. Sorry, but it BUGS me to watch her sit there and twitch and spin! The breeder I got her from is willing to work we me on whatever I want to do, but I don't know if I want to exchange her for a non-wobbler that he has, exchange for a male that doesn't wobble, swap for another snake (non-Spider) or request a refund and move on. I just wish I'd been told the facts before making my purchase. Hopefully, breeders will be more up front in the future and threads like this will help inform others.

I just don't know what I should do....

Thanks to all for all the input and thanks to the many breeders that have contacted me privately with your experience and knowledge.

Tim

RandyRemington Aug 27, 2005 11:12 AM

I certainly agree that you should have been told that this individual spider spins ahead of time. I also think it would have been best if everyone knew about the problem as soon as it was discovered. Even people who bought spiders that hadn't shown signs of spinning yet should have known about the tendency. My point was just that now that most everyone knows about this (there have been several threads here before this) the tendency to spin is probably pretty much figured in to the market price.

Of course it could have been very sticky as to when it was first seen. Perhaps some where already sold before then so the decision to go public would have effected more than just the originator. Also it probably had to be seen for more than a few times to be sure it wasn't just a fluke or if it could be outbred. I think there might be a couple other mutations currently going through this stage. Perhaps they should be discussed publicly sooner rather than later? If there is a problem with a morph it sucks for the initial investor but they already took a huge risk that it would even be reproducible and it seems to me better for that one investor to take the lump than wait until a bunch of later investors all have to take it. At least if everyone is informed as information becomes available along the way they can make their own decisions.

toshamc Aug 27, 2005 12:44 PM

I was wondering if any of the breeders you talked to mentioned whether or not their spider crosses had exhibited the trait? I'm also wondering if not could there be a way to possibly breed it out of the morph using these crosses?
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Tosha

Quote " " End Quote

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

autotunz Aug 27, 2005 02:24 PM

That's a good question, Tosha. No one that I have spoken with said that it is showing up in any crosses, only in Spiders themselves. One breeder in particular (very well respected) said that he refuses to sell Spiders because of this trait. He will only use them with other morphs for the crosses. We also discussed "selectively" breeding Spiders to see if the trait could be eliminated. Of course, that will take time.

alanz Aug 24, 2005 04:14 PM

The whole spider paranoia was started a few months ago by someone who neither likes nor keeps spiders .. It is likely that the spider mutation is adjacent to a motor gene, and if you look at a spider, any spider, long enough, you will see the head twitch. This is in no way similar to the caramel abnormality, which may be a profound defect, yet caramels maintain their popularity. Nor does it in any way keep the spider from being one of the most prolific, best feeding, fastest growing morphs out there. Do a forum search on the topic, and see NERD's response of a few months ago. It best puts things in perspective.
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Al Zulich
Harford Reptile
www.pythons.com

toshamc Aug 24, 2005 04:32 PM

Hey Al - Did those Angolans hatch yet???
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Tosha

"One of these days i am going to wake up..look around...and realize my place looks more like "Ace Venturas"s than my own." Coldthumb

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul "JP"
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 lizard rescued from vicious feline

jyohe Aug 24, 2005 05:05 PM

I saw a couple that did hatch on his table....

the better question might be......

"do you have any left Al?"

......they are so sweet........and fat too.......

......good luck.......can't wait till I make more $$$$$ for them too......
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yes I would like 2 eggroll with that please...........................................

ginebig Aug 24, 2005 05:53 PM

LOL, Why Tosha? Ya lookin' for another one

Quig

toshamc Aug 24, 2005 05:56 PM

LOL - Yeah - I was hoping to pick up a female from Al this year - looks like I'll be waiting till next year Poor Ankin he'll just have to be celebate for a while longer.
-----
Tosha

"One of these days i am going to wake up..look around...and realize my place looks more like "Ace Venturas"s than my own." Coldthumb

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul "JP"
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer
0.0.1 lizard rescued from vicious feline

jyohe Aug 24, 2005 05:02 PM

yea.........

someone above says it probably isn't or hasn't been proven genetic>?........well of course it is if spiders pass it on to other spiders.....

guess some get it and others don't......

I wish the center for Parkinson's research would get ahold of some bad /good examples of this and test them and see if they have a related problem ...

I got a spider from Alan Z at Harford and haven't notice it yet at all.....hope I never do.......now I don't actually watch him all that much..he does bite mice fast enough and eat them well.....and he had no trembling when he bites me the few times he did.......he went in straight and let go straight....

like said.....you got a bad one........
and also said.it will eat and grow and breed faster then normal balls and have babies that do or don't have this.so breed it and keep some babies.........

good luck.........
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yes I would like 2 eggroll with that please...........................................

wshihdapinstripe Aug 24, 2005 10:32 PM

That's the best part is that nobody talks about spiders shaking heads...........Many spiders do that but nobody ever said anything about it in the beginning..or rarely say anthing now about it either .......25,000 for a head shaking snake, maybe too much inbreeding?? Maybe they are just retarded and have a screwed up gene....the head shaking gene

nita Aug 25, 2005 12:14 PM

I doubt it is from inbreeding. Spiders are probably the most outbred animal since it is a dominant gene the only time they bother to inbreed is for the different bees. Is it more prevalent in the spider crosses? That would lead one to think that the inbreeding of them is a problem but my guess is it is something that only comes out in spiders so it must be linked somehow to the spider gene.
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Nita Hamilton
--------------
Ball Pythons

RandyRemington Aug 26, 2005 08:02 AM

Just a guess but I doubt it's more prevalent in the crosses. The post about seeing it in spider crosses at Daytona made me suspect that people just don't bring shaking normal spiders but with a nice looking and rare cross can't resist bringing it out in public even though it spins.

MAHLON Aug 25, 2005 12:57 AM

I'm going to make this short and sweet, b/c this is my third time now typing out my reply.

So anyways, personally I find this very very disturbing. First and foremost the implied notion I'm seeing inherent in these posts is that this is not a first time occurrence and that this has been observed by many people, and not talked about much. What also is more than disturbing is that this has been noticed before, and more than likely those animals showing symptoms were bred and the progeny sold/traded off.

This in and of itself is wrong IMO, as it seems to be recurring throughout the population and people are breeding animals indiscriminately regardless of showing symptoms. Whatever this thing is, all animals exhibiting signs of it should not be bred, and definitely not sold to others unless full disclosure and a lowered price as the animal should be a pet, and not a breeder. The only reason for breeding these animals is so that we can prove/disprove whether this is genetic or not.

Furthermore, the weird thing that I see in this situation is the fact that spider balls being dominant (no visual difference in the heterozygous and homozygous individuals) there should be little to no inbreeding occurring now within this morph since breeding two spiders together will only give you 3:1 (spider:normal) and breeding spider x normal would give you 1:1 (spider:normal) so the advantage is definitely in breeding normal X spider.

As I see it now, and this is just my opinion, is that either a) the individuals who are showing this behavior are the homozygous spiders or b) the problem stems from the initial spider breedings to prove out the morph. I don't know maybe Kevin from N.E.R.D. or anyone else out there who has kept many spiders can shed some light on this, but one thing is for sure, it is not responsible for breeders to continue breeding animals showing these symptoms, and for most people that can afford a spider, they sure as hell aren't buying it just for a pet, but for the sole purpose of breeding it and selling the progeny.

Anyways, feel free to agree/disagree/flame, its' all for the sake of argument and we'd all be alot better off in the long run if we can discuss this in the open and figure out exactly what is going on.

-Dan

nita Aug 25, 2005 12:17 PM

Now if only there was a way to "fix" as in spay/neuter snakes and then the ones that wobble or the caramels with small kinks could be fixed and sold as pets but since they can't it is up to the breeder who produces said animals are not being used as breeding stock. I would love to get a spider in the future, not that I'm huge on spiders themselves but I do love the crosses. Don't want a bobble head though.
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Nita Hamilton
--------------
Ball Pythons

Bighaze Aug 25, 2005 01:24 PM

Let me see if I'm reading this right,

Some spider balls have a defect, yet they are still being sold to peolpe who will breed them and pass on the defect, and everyone is OK with this?

I know that can't be right, I mean people selling defective snakes and no one is saying anything?

I'm kinda new to balls and I may of read this post wrong, if so tell me, if not tell me how this is any better then selling fake hets? Atleast if you buy a fake het you get a healthy snake.

toshamc Aug 25, 2005 01:49 PM

This appears to be more of a defect that a health issue. But little is really know about the problem at this time. As they do appear to eat grow and otherwise lead a normal life - some people could liken it to Parkinsons disease or even something like blindness in humans - and we don't seem to have any problems letting those people breed - LOL.

People do sell these defective snakes, people do breed these defective snakes - defect does not seem to be genetic in that a snake with the defect does not necessarily mean it will pass on its offspring and 'healthy' spiders also seem to pass on the defect. Yes if you are selling a snake that shakes it should be disclosed as well as if you are selling healthy snakes of those with the defect. Does this always happen - no.

Hope this helps.
-----
Tosha

Quote " " End Quote

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

Bighaze Aug 25, 2005 02:39 PM

In a way that does make sense, I guess.

Is there a way to get a spider and KNOW it doesn't have it, or pass it on?

spiders are great looking snakes, and I would love to have one someday, but if there is no way to know if your snake has this defect, or could pass it on, how can you/I buy with confidence?

I have a burm with a defect, could of been egg stress, but I don't KNOW. He is a DH for green and lab, I sure could use him this year, as I have a green female, and a lab female that are just waiting to breed with him. Will I? hell no, I will not breed anything with a defect. So I will breed them with my albino, and make some more hets. to me it is a BIG loss, as the breeding of these snakes was to give me the cash to get into balls.

Why did I post that?

I'm a very small time breeder, and every sale helps, a $50.00 normal burm, a $95.00 albino burm, they all add up. But even I would know better then to sell a snake that has a defect.

Be it a $300.00 burm or a 5k spider, I see no reason to sell a defective snake, to anyone or for any reason. In my mind it's just not cool.

Not trying to say to anything bad about anyone, I just wouldn't to it.

coldthumb Aug 25, 2005 03:01 PM

I'm a very small time breeder, and every sale helps, a $50.00 normal burm, a $95.00 albino burm, they all add up.

If you are looking to get into balls then sell the burms and buy a hatchling pastel male/sub-adult female package somewhere.
It may save you the headache of trying to move that many snakes that will grow to 20' as adults.Especially when you consider how everyone is going into ball morphs the way they are....let alone the reduction in food costs.

...just a thought...call it positive feedback if you will.

Good luck
-----
Charles Glaspie

Tanstaafl:
"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch".
An acronym created by my favorite author Robert A. Heinlein.

Bighaze Aug 25, 2005 03:40 PM

You have a very good point, and one I have even thought of myself.

But I like burms, and nomatter how little they may be worth in cash, They are worth everything to me. Sorry but I like them.

My point was even thought this could be my year to make a lot of money(to me atleast) I will not breed a snake that I know could cause deformities, and I'm a nobody, I would like to think the breeders that everyone looks up to would fell the same way.

Maybe I'm wrong, it sure as hell would not be the first time.But till more is known about this defect, I don't think I will buying any spiders, even if I had the cash to risk.

This is just the way I fell, I'm not saying it's right or worng, it's just my thoughts, take it for what you will.

MAHLON Aug 25, 2005 07:06 PM

Tosha,
First I just wanted to say that I've read alot of awesome posts from you on these boards and I don't want you to take this as an attack, BUT...

1) First your evidence for this trait not being genetic is scant at best, "defect does not seem to be genetic in that a snake with the defect does not necessarily mean it will pass on its offspring and 'healthy' spiders also seem to pass on the defect," all that what your saying above means is that the spider trait is most likely not linked directly to the spider gene or a result of it, although we can't rule that out for certain without spending five years on a breeding project proving or disproving it.

Personally I think that most likely in my opinion is that this is a gene seperate from the spider gene but that originated in one of the early breedings or even with the original spider but that has been distributed rapidly since the dominant nature of the spider gene makes it easy produce large amounts of animals without inbreeding. This in and of itself is probably why this problem hasn't been so widely known as there have probably only been one or two handfuls of spiderXspider breedings since either the homozygous condition is either lethal or undifferentiable from the heterozyous phenotype.

As to the nature of this phenomenon if it is genetic and inheritable, it is hard to say although I would probably most likely have to say recessive although there is scant evidence either way, codominant also being just as likely. Like I have said before, the only way to know is for someone to take some of these affected animals and breed to prove or disprove this phenomenon.

2) Comparing selective breeding (what all those wonderful breeders out there with rooms full of ball pythons are doing) with human beings with blindness having children is not ok in my book. I work in a hospital and we deal with congenital defects in babies all the time. Last year I remember a family with 8 children , both parents were heterozygous for congenital heart defects, and out of the children all 8 were girls, and 3 of them had said defects. The wife was pregnant with the 9th child, and I wondered why the parents would keep having children that they knew had a 1/4 chance of being born with defects. Well I came to find out later that the reason they kept having children was because the parents wanted a boy. Is it really ok for parents knowingly to bring children into this world that are going to endure years of painful surgeries, and that if they didn't receive medical care immediately upon birth they would die? I think not, but in our world it is infinitely harder to control who can have a gun, buy alcohol, or drive a car than it is to control who can have a child.

Well, anyhow Tosha just wanted to reply and give the devil's advocate opinion as to what you said, in no way is this a personal attack, I just don't like people dismissing something that is potentially very very serious (hint: notice no one from any of the big breeders has replied to this post, nor any of the medium breeders) and I thought I'd give you the flip side since I've read many of your posts and have gained insight from them ball python husbandry, as you always have words for everyone who comes on here, and more likely than not help the person and their reptile at the same time.

Well anyhow, sorry this was so long, have a good one and feel free to refute me if ya like,

-Dan

toshamc Aug 25, 2005 07:29 PM

Hey Dan - no problem - I'm not offended at all -

I guess I was trying to explain it in easy general terms and that may be where the communication faultered. The point is that nobody really knows the genetics involved in this thing - but from what we have seen a "normal" spider has just as much chance of passing this on as a defective animal. Of course information regarding this little problem isn't readily available - it just kind of trickles out here and there.

And I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone with the blindness analogy - my best friend and her husband are deaf and it runs in both sides of their family - 2 of her 3 kids are deaf - yes we've discussed her feelings on having kids if she knew she was going to pass on her deafness. Again is wasn't meant to offend and I apologize if it did.
-----
Tosha

Quote " " End Quote

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

MAHLON Aug 25, 2005 07:42 PM

No problem at all Tosha, like I said it was not meant to be a post to make you feel bad, I was just stating the scenario to illustrate the responsibility of the breeder in the lines that they are working with (whether it is parents or a snake breeder)and to help all of us get a clearer understanding by finding out what is going on.

Secondly, as to the point you said in your last post about healthy spiders passing on the gene, well couldn't this very easily be described as a heterozygous animal? Stands to reason that either A) the healthy animal was recessively heterozygous for the trait, as well as the other sire/dam? or B) The animal was het for codominant and the shaking is only usually slightly to moderately visual in the hets, and easily seen in the homos?

I'm not pretending to say anything I know is fact, just want to put these ideas out there for discussion, as this phenomenon is just asking for an explanation.

-Dan

RandyRemington Aug 27, 2005 06:24 AM

Dan,

I'd have to disagree and say that the spinning is almost certainly dominant. As toshamc pointed out the info is scant but from some of the posts I've seen it sounds like many spiders eventually exhibit it. Given that there has been almost no inbreeding in spider lines it seems to me that the spinning is likely caused by a dominant gene. Also against this being recessive is that the spinning is hardly ever seen in non-spiders (would be if there where lots of hets for a 2nd gene out there). That it has stayed with spider lines in spite of so much out breeding leads me to think it's either the spider gene it's self or a very closely linked gene. The reports of non-spinning spiders producing spinning offspring lead me to think it's the spider gene it's self and some other factor determines the expression. If it where a linked but separate gene then once the link was broken to create a non spinning spider then none of it's offspring with normals would spin. The sporadic expression is a puzzler but we see it in the amount of white in homozygous pieds and in some hets that have the marker and some that don't so it wouldn't be the first case. Perhaps other genetics do determine the expression of the spinning component of the spider gene so it’s worth trying to line breed for non-spinning spiders but that would likely be a long and difficult experiment with no sure results.

autotunz Aug 25, 2005 06:16 PM

First of all, thanks to all who have responded and given your valued input. For those following this thread, it appears that we all now see that the emperor is naked. The defect/condition has been known for a while by many people but not openly discussed. From all the comments on this thread, there are some pretty strong opinions and as a recent Spider purchaser, I'm pretty concerned and still somewhat confused. I want to breed her, but won't if it could pass along the defect.

Here's the big favor: I'd like to ask some of the big breeders to please give me your input. Is it hereditary? Will it pass along to offspring? Will it go away in time or is it a permanent condition? Since the breeder knew of the condition when I purchased her, should I request a refund/exchange? How much less is she worth than a "normal" Spider? I'd love to hear from Ralph D., Mike W., Dan & Colette, Peter K., Bob C., Kevin & Kara, Greg G., Tom B., Mike J. and any of the other wonderful, knowledgable breeders out there (either in the forum or off-the-record.)

Thanks again for all the input.

Still wondering & concerned,

Tim

MAHLON Aug 25, 2005 06:30 PM

Tim,

While I'm not an established person on these boards, or even known in the reptile world, I hope that you'll take the time to read this and at least question whether what I'm saying is possibly true at the least.

The thing is about this phenomenon is that not a single one of the breeders out there is going to be able to tell you if this thing is genetic or not, unless they have specifically bred two animals showing moderate to high syptoms to each other and try to figure out if it is inheritable or not. Anyone else that tries to tell you that they know for sure, b/c they have been dealing with spider populations for a long time, etc. is full of crap. I'll repeat the only way to be able to tell for sure is to specifically breed for the trait just as you would in establishing a new morph, but I guarantee you that no one has spent their time in trying to prove/disprove this trait.

If anyone has spent their time studying this phenomenon or has kept many spiders for some time and cares to shed some more light on this situation I'd love to hear it, and maybe we can come somewhat closer to finding out what is causing this mysterious shaking in these animals. Also if anyone out there has noticed anything similar to this in normals, as one poster above said I'm sure we'd all like to hear their observations as well.

Hope that this helps some, and if you have any more questions that I might be able to answer let me know.

-Dan

autotunz Aug 25, 2005 06:49 PM

Thanks very much, Dan. I appreciate your input and insight. I'm sure you're right that no one has probably confirmed the true genetic nature of this trait. My big concern is her overall health, and of course the degree of possibility that she would pass this along to future offspring. I, like you, openly request that those with the knowledge please inform the rest of us. We're all supposed to be here to inform and help each other as we pursue our hobby and or profession. I can exchange her for another from the breeder, but will I still run the chance of producing babies with the "shakes?" Regardless, I love Spiders and the possibilities they bring when bred with other morphs.

Thanks again,

Tim

Eric Sandoval Aug 25, 2005 09:50 PM

If it's not genetic then how do you explain it happening so often and only to spiders. I could agree it hasn't been proven if there was only a small amount of breednig done and only a few woblers, but that's not the case. I agree with Al Zulichs post from below, whatever gene defect that causes the spider appearance also affects there motor skills. As far as I know it hasn't been seen in any of the normal appearing siblings so it being a seperate gene is unlikely.

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

NotABigDeal Aug 25, 2005 06:26 PM

first of all, i dont think you will see any big time breeder come on here and talk about a defect in a BIG money maker for them. that is business suicide. instead they will give all the positive points of the spider....dont get me wrong, i like the spider, in fact it is one of my favourite morphs. breeding a normal spider and getting defective snake is one thing, but to actually breed a defective snake without knowing the severity of the condition is immoral. how can people say it doesnt affect their health? is there some way that i dont know about to ask the snake how he/she feels? anyone selling a spider should disclose the "possibility" of a defect in the spider gene. the fact the the big breeders wont come on here makes me even more worried. they are the ones who could shed some light on the subject. i think it would be interesting to find out how many have come out of the egg this way....i dont think it will happen. sorry for ranting but i think this is the major problem with this industry.

thanks for listening....
Deal

p.s. fire away at me....im waitin....

autotunz Aug 25, 2005 06:38 PM

Deal,
Thanks for your comments and I understand where you're coming from. I'm obviously feeling concerned after paying market price for this snake. The breeder I bought it from has been great during our discussions and is willing to do whatever he and I agree on as the right thing to do. I'd just like to know if I'm being overly concerned or if I'm totally justified in my feelings. I feel that the "big breeders" have much more experience with this trait and could help put my mind at ease or confirm that I need to exchange/refund her.

To all: ANYTHING that is said to me via PM or email will be kept in the STRICTEST confidence!!! I'm just looking for a little help in knowing what to do.

Thanks!

Tim

toshamc Aug 25, 2005 07:05 PM

Tim - I think Deal has hit the nail on the head - there are too many breeders buttering their bread with the spider and spider crosses - they aren't going to shoot themselves in the foot. If the breeder you got her from is willing to trade you a good one - I'd take that over risking losing her in a couple of years. Just my opinion tho. I'm really sorry that you had to learn about this the hard way. I wish you the best of luck whatever you decide to do.
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Tosha

Quote " " End Quote

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

NotABigDeal Aug 25, 2005 06:56 PM

if it is found that this is a deadly genetic disorder that is carried by ALL spiders, that is the end of A LOT of money. that is what it all boils down too....money. if spiders were only worth $500 they would not be bred due to this. that would mean no spider crosses....no spider nothin. literally hundreds of thousands of dollars lost a year. i wish you the best in your adventure.

Deal

p.s. im in no way sayin its deadly, just a possibilty. (hasnt been proven either way yet....)

MAHLON Aug 25, 2005 07:14 PM

Deal,
Just wanted to say that you are more than likely in error as to this mysterious phenomenon being lethal in captivity. From the posts above it seems that this phenomenon has been noticed somewhat regularly and that most people say the animals live "normal" lives. BUT.... At the same time the best comparison with this disorder seems parkinson's and why in the world would anyone want to preserve this trait, when it would seem more likely that you would want to erradicate this, to establish hardier lines of the spider gene, and not perpetrate this shaking.

Anyways, just wanted to respond, I don't think we should be spreading rumors about snakes dying when all evidence that's been revealed so far shows that this is not the case.

-Dan

NotABigDeal Aug 25, 2005 07:21 PM

you say it isnt fatal....you have no proof that it isnt....there is no proof that it is either, read my message again....what is a normal life for a twitching animal?

Deal

p.s. these are not people with parkinsons, these are snakes with some kind of genetic problem....

MAHLON Aug 25, 2005 07:32 PM

Deal,
I'm not saying that you are 100% wrong here, but a lethal gene is one that causes the animal to die from it. And as to "normal" being subjective (aka opinion oriented) that is why I put it in quotes, but regardless you can't say this is lethal because most of the proof lies in the fact that these animals are surviving in captivity, and as to whether they would survive in the wild, that is a different argument and I might tend to agree that in the wild it would be to the disadvantage of the snake significantly and could be so much that the animal is not able to survive. But in a captive environment we talk of lethals as inherently lethal, in example disformed organs, kinked neck, malformed jaw, etc, and this has not been shown to be the case from everything I've heard of with the spiders. Most people describe spiders as being good eaters in captivity, reproducing commonly at a year old for males, etc and no where do we see any reports of peoples expensive spiders dropping dead for no explainable reason, or implicating the shaking.

Like I said earlier, I'm not saying that what you are saying is not possible, just evidence so far that is inconclusive makes me think that it is just not probable.

Hope that helps, and feel free to dispute.....I mean argue with me =)

-Dan

NotABigDeal Aug 25, 2005 07:40 PM

does something have to kill you right away to be considered lethal? (AIDS, you can live with it, but so far it is lethal, and can be passed on). sorry for all the replies but this is a very important subject in this community.

Deal

p.s. i respect your opinion and harbor no ill will against you. i could talk about this all night probably....

NotABigDeal Aug 25, 2005 07:42 PM

what is the age of the oldest spider, and is the origional spider still kickin without the shakes? just wonderin....

Deal

toshamc Aug 25, 2005 07:54 PM

LOL - NERD would have the oldest one (unless they traded it away?) however I don't see it on Kevins list above - (my post about who has the oldest morphs???
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Tosha

Quote " " End Quote

7.33.0 Ball Python (Harry and Fluffy and gang)
1.0.0 Angolan Python (Anakin Skywalker)
0.0.1 Green Tree Python
0.2.0 Feline (Pippen and Pandora)
0.0.1 Dessert Tortoise (Pope John Paul aka JP )
2.2.1 Fish (1,2,3,4)
0.0.2 frogs rescued from pool skimmer

MAHLON Aug 25, 2005 07:56 PM

Nothing personal Deal, but comparing HIV/AIDS to a lethal gene isn't even in the same ballpark, unless it is possible that this is a virus, but then it should affect ball python colonies in general, not just spiders, and from what people with spiders have said this is not the case.

Secondly, AIDS is lethal at this time, HIV is not, so that doesn't even work in this case. The thing is that these animals seem to be able to survive in captivity with not much extraneous care (ie. force tube feedings, etc) therefore it would seem to appear that they aren't likely to die from having this shaking, though this is definitely not something to strive for in breeding unless we want more waltzing mice, tumbling doves, or cats that look like rabbits, etc. This is a longstanding argument in breeding circles and as far as I've seen it is at a standstill with no one being more correct than the other, similar to the hybrid arguments. The only difference in this case is that people aren't selecting for animals with or without this trait, they are just indiscriminately breeding/selling them which in the long run is not good for the spider bloodlines and for faith of the customer in buying spiders if you can't say for sure whether it will be a shaky one or not, who knows pedigrees could be come to be just as important in ball pythons as they now are in dogs.... Just food for thought, feel free to reply as always =)

-Dan

NotABigDeal Aug 25, 2005 09:19 PM

i was using AIDS just as an example. i never said anything about HIV....i wasnt trying to say it was a virus, i should have been more clear i guess. i guess only time will tell. i think we are on the same page here, just maybe spilittin hairs a little bit.

Deal

p.s. i have seen those cat things....those SHOULD NOT be bred....they are creepy looking

spatt02 Aug 25, 2005 10:38 PM

consider this....15 years ago, if you owned a few normal ball pythons because you simply loved the species... you bred them... your babies were worth 40 dollars which you might be able to sell them to the pet store down the street....and one of the babies came out and had a bit of a 'tremble' .....would you think about selling it? Would you think about breeding it??

You wouldn't, because it's only worth 40 dollars.

...if you bred german sheppards, or grey's parrots, and they lived normally, except they had a slightly weird tremble that you know the breed doesn't have normally, would you breed it and try and sell it to people?

NewDimReps Aug 26, 2005 03:11 PM

Once they hit about 500-600 grams it goes away. Last year I kept every female spider I produced. A few had that problem. None do now. My original male I got was 90 grams he never showed the signs. Its something sopratic that happens in Spiders that vanishes as they mature. Are any of you guys keeping spiders thats discussing this topic. I'm only asking this question because if your not you are making nothing but assumptions , that you have no first hand knowledge of.

RandyRemington Aug 27, 2005 06:41 AM

Thanks for a post with experience but as you noticed there aren't a lot of them in this thread so we are left to hypothesize. I have seen informed posts on both sides as to if it goes away or not. How big are your females now and how long have you not seen it?

NewDimReps Aug 28, 2005 12:31 AM

My females now are in the 900-1100 gram range. The females that had the weird behavior have not exhibited it since the 500-600 gram mark. Who knows but it does not effect them in anyway. They have never had a problem eating growing etc. They dontmis strike the prey. I dont feel it is a big deal. Just My Opinion and everyone is entitled to thiers , and I respect everyones they have that choice to disagree.

Mike Tucker

autotunz Aug 28, 2005 01:56 AM

I REALLY hope you're right...the overwhelming response from others seems to think that it doesn't go away.

autotunz Aug 27, 2005 10:27 AM

I've spoken with many breeders and Spider owners since I started this thread a couple of days ago. There is much speculation, but not a lot of hard data. One breeder refuses to sell Spiders because of the trait. He owns and breeds them to other morphs for the cool crosses they create, but will not do Spider/Spider breeding.

A couple of big breeders suggested that perhaps there should be two levels of pricing on Spiders based on wobblers and non-wobblers. It's hard to say, as no one can POSITIVELY state that it may or may not go away later or that it may or may not appear later on. Lots of conflicting information on that one. I personally feel that paying today's market price for a snake with a know gene defect isn't right and I should have been notified of the condition and allowed to make an educated decision rather than discovering it on my own, having to question it and dig to get to the truth.

Perhaps the best thing that has come of this discussion is that it is now more out in the open and hopefully potential buyers can be better informed. I would probably have passed on buying a Spider had I been told the truth. Sorry, but it BUGS me to watch her sit there and twitch and spin! The breeder I got her from is willing to work we me on whatever I want to do, but I don't know if I want to exchange her for a non-wobbler that he has, exchange for a male that doesn't wobble, swap for another snake (non-Spider) or request a refund and move on. I just wish I'd been told the facts before making my purchase. Hopefully, breeders will be more up front in the future and threads like this will help inform others.

I just don't know what I should do....

Thanks to all for all the input and thanks to the many breeders that have contacted me privately with your experience and knowledge.

Tim

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