Reptile & Amphibian Forums

With all the talk about the goini being blotched , then the patternless and striped has anyone thought about a step in evoulution for this area that we are seing in our life time. Now i'm refering to a pattern not something like growing legs but an evoulution that won't take a million years. In this region over the last 65 years how many generations have there been. I would like to hear some of your thoughts on this so please post. Thanks Paul

From what I know there has been many changes just since the 70s. Supposedly you could road cruise in the Spring and easily find up to five on a given day. Today you're lucky if you find one in a whole year. Also, it's quite obvious that the Eastern King has swamped this area and you're seeing their influence more and more. I haven't heard of anyone finding a striped/patternless form in a while and I don't think they are completely gone. But I do believe with the infaltration of surrounding Eastern Kings it's making it harder to find those forms today.

wow,that reminds me of what i heard about the everglades rat snake,now pure mostly just in captivity,and stll being overwhelmed in the wild by the encroaching yellow rat's genes....the way i took the question,though,was more like'are we perhaps witnessing just a more obvious than usual example of a population(goinis) striving to find it's niche before our eyes'....i.e. is mother nature tinkering with these guys as we speak,throwing differnet sh$%^t "up 'gainst the wall" to see what sticks the best?

From what i understand there have been patternless, striped, blotched and banded/chained kingsnakes in the ANF for many,many years more than just a few decades.
AND the reason for the decline of the more sought after patternless/striped varieties is because of over collecting, Means mentions this in his "snake wranglers" episode.
Someone please correct me if i'm wrong.

This brings up the debate of how good are we at collecting from a given area. The forest being what it is would be very hard to even dent any given population. Think about how much ground you can cover. The best way to find kings in the spring is looking under well placed boards or even better tin but in the forest these get cleaned up when found. Look at the number of kings found just by Sean this spring and then look at how many where in the forest. I don't believe the overcollecting theory for snakes that don't have a communal(sp) hibernaculum. Just my thoughts. Oh and I hate the Post Office more than you.
Later Jason

Means said in his Nat. Geo. t.v. show that after he brought attention to the apalachicola phase it caused mass collecting.
I guess that's why he had to stage a phony capture, it's all good tho.
Have you seen the episode? it's one of the best of the "snake wranglers" series.

Like I said I don't believe it. I think the clear cutting and re-seeding of the forest had more to do with it. I never saw the episode. I actually cut off my cable/satelite about 3-4 years ago. Probably why I am on here so much. LOL
Later Jason

We are so spoiled these days, arn't we??? LOL!!! To some, no cable is as bad as no water! LOL!!! I have to say, that if I didn't have cable, my wife would probably divorce me!!!

Zee

The dish company tried to almost double my rate over the corse of 6 months so I got pissed and canceled it. I started taking better care of my animals. Try it, you might not miss it and heaven forbid you might have conversation in your house. That was the other thing. Nobod talks to each other when the TV is on. It helps the goverment control us. Being in the service you might know a thing or two about mind control. HAHA
Later Jason

Good point! I NEVER had cable as a child and did spend more time with the family!
I have to admit, I have too many snakes to look after to enjoy cable, but it keeps the wife from being p-o'd at me for ignoring her when I am tending to my collection. (Thinking of trimming back soon, though, LOL!)

Zee

well jetzen i think the reason you will see fewer striped,and even less patternles is the following-patternlessness is just a super rare anamoly in the wild,just has been selectively bred up in captivity;and the striped specimens are seen less frequently due to the genetic swarming by the chain patterned eastern king,leading to the prominence of literally blotch-patterned goinis....and goinis in general(like all snakes) fall prey mostly to yes,cars and habitat destruction....besides as anyone here will forcefully tell you-what possible negative influence could hundreds,yes hundreds of herpers obsessed with finding these snakes,thus hunting them around the clock at least 8 or 9 months out of the year,be it in their cars,or more actively hunting afield by patrolling river banks,flipping and ripping stumps,logs,etc. or even planting a.c. such as tin and boards anywhere they can....despite the captive and selectively bred beauties that can be bought for as little as 30 bucks give or take at any given reptile show....no that obviously wouldn't be a substantial factor jetzen.....thanks for raising the question.just get ready for a lil' backlash,lol....and yes i can recomend several breeders of goini,with all pattern types..let me know your email adress if you want the info

Is it a factor? Yes Is it the whole reason or even a major reason?? Not in my opinion. Even with the army of herpers spending all day and night in the woods for 9 months as you describe how many have you heard of being caught. Hundreds over the last couple decades sure but not thousands. I don't see herpers as the real threat. Sorry it doesn't fit in my head. Most guys drive a few roads and hit a few spots of tin which leaves 80% plus of the land unharvested. The Goini do not overwinter in communal dens like say, northern Timbers. Timbers can be overharvested or killed in mass and affect the health of the population. Goini simply cannot. Look at the Canebrakes in Georgia. They are everywhere even though they do have small communal winter dens that are or/where harvested/destroyed the population is strong. The reason is no mass groups going to the few suitable dens. I have a reason for my way of thinking. Its not blind greed for goini behind me saying what I do. I have never hunted the forest even. I have no problem with your view on collecting though I obviously disagree. I do however take offense to you insinuating that I am ignorant for having different views. If you want ignorant then blame the herpers for the decline of a snake that has had its habitat altered. Do you wonder how many open praires where seeded with pine when the lumber companies moved in? I would love a picture of the habitat from the 1900's to compare and see what is the same. Or more realistically a map of the forest.
Later Jason

I always thought the patternless was rare.
I also know overcollecting can be bad for wild snakes, I have been guilty of doing it for years and that was years ago, i don't feel too bad it though because i've heard much of my old snake hunting grounds are housing tracts and been so for years.
you can send me a message from this post.

The Snake Wranglers show depicted snake hunters walking through the ANF and picking up kingsnakes as if they were collecting Easter eggs. It was a gross and ridiculous exaggeration.
The very idea that 'commercial collectors' are responsible for the rarity of these kingsnakes is so outrageous that one cannot even begin to argue the point without resorting to unprintable language.
The areas of the forest (i.e. forest roads) that are accessable to hunting are so few in number, and such a small part of the overall geography that 'snake hunters' could never---ever even put a dent in the population of these kingsnakes.
It is like saying that road hunters in West Texas are responsible for the grey banded kingsnake being rare.
In addition, Bruce Means is absolutely against the keeping of ANY reptile or amphibian by ANYONE other than academic types. So his views are a reflection of his paranoia against amateur Herpetologists.
Lastly, Means has 'pickled' more perfectly live goini or blotched kings or whatever you want to call them, for study than you care to know. All in the name of science.
The show was completly without crediblity.

First i found out about the phony capture, and now this other stuff, how about when he almost stepped on the water moccasain that was prolly phony too.
I kinda liked his beach sand theory but i'm wondering if that's b.s. also.
Thanks for the info

Better queastion ( at least in my opinion) how differant is the forest today after all the lumber companies have had their fill? How much is old growth in the forest today?? This is a serious queastion because I have only been close, to but never in the forest. I do know the Oceola Forest has only batches here and there of old growth but those spots are truely beautiful to see.
Later Jason

in a lot, if not most places, certain plant species have a huge influence on the local wildlife there, which in turn affects snakes too. Of what I have seen in the ANF, a lot of logging has occured in the past, because stands of real old longleaf pine & oak are almost non-existent. Of course, there is a lot of forest, but I have seen very little Pine trees that ARE actually older than at least 60 years . . . And I have driven on probably 5000 miles of sand roads in that area and seen most of the forest that is accessible by car. . .
And I still wonder why lighting strikes the entire forest floor exactly every three years and only burns in large squares . . .

Zee

LOL I will miss the idea of being in a state that catches on fire every couple years. In Chicago it is only a building or two but one thing that is the same is the nature preserves here in Chicago are nothing like nature. They are a gross group of trees that only look like nature. In Fl I bet the Goini king was affected much like the everglades and the brooks by the destruction of the habitat that allowed for the divergence from the norm in the first place. I mean the idea that we collected all the patternless Goini or that the Easterns waited until the last few years to go into the lowlands is laughable. ITS THE CLEAR CUTTING OF THE FOREST PEOPLE. Just like the draining of Florida has wiped out the Glades (the snake and the swamps) and the Brooks morph from south Fl and Tampa. It has all happened as we sit here. People are still alive who can remember a differant world than what we have where these rare animals in nature where common. Nobody else sees this.

Goini as a morph or subspieces is almost gone from nature because of habitat changes thanks to us the humans who cut down the trees. Oh yeah we planted some new ones to replace the 500 year old one we cut down. Want to here something sick. In Illinois there is 2% of the forest that was here before settelment. What do you think is gone that we never knew about????
Later Jason

yeah i want to scream every time i drive past all the clearcuts i see in the carolinas...and those f'ing opensided trucks with tall-ass pine tree trunks stacked like pencils all over the place...sure enough you gotta give the cracker his due,we're tops at f'ing up the natural beauty of a country,lol...well maybe not,but they sure did a number here...wow i'm on a roll huh...makes me envious of my herp buddies that are so much more enthralled with,say,australian herps...then again they have'nt even been to their dream herp sites....that being said,i will sleep at night knowing if/when i do find a goini,all i will take is it's photo

I live in NC right now, and I see a new clear cut place virtually everytime I drive through what used to be the "country". It does suck. I'm also a keeper of New Guinea/Oz venomous. And the fact that I'll probably never get to go to OZ is a bummer. I'm getting into Kingsnakes more now, and I really love the Goini or whatever you choose to call them. I have 16 of them right now. Patternless, Blotched, and Striped specimens.

Everyone knows habitat destruction/contamination is the #1 cause of loss of wildlife everywhere. Road kills are probably the next highest. If both of these reasons are killing off most of the wildlife, it seems to me that we should do something to stop it in areas where the endangered species still are, and not add to the loss of a specie by taking home every one you see.

I'm closing on a place with 5 acres in Suwannee County, FL this coming Tuesday, and I'll be actually moving there in Oct. I may go to the ANF to look for snakes sometime, but I won't be taking any home. Sure I'd like locality specific specimens, but I'll settle for what I can get, "purchase", before I add to the loss of a species in the wild. They say "two wrongs, don't make a right". How can adding another wrong, "collecting", make it right?

that's all

You know Zee as a student of wildlife science at MSU I have been brainwashed into beleiving that southern pine forest absolutley have to have fire regularly in order to provide the greatest biomass for native wildlife and support a healthy and diverse ecosystem. Funny thing is I have NEVER heard of a natural fire that occured in a southern pine forest. So why do they burn? MONEY!!!! It's all about timber production. When the mature pines have to compete for nutrients and water in an already dry and sandy environment then they suffer.....so lets burn the mid and lower story to allow the trees to get bigger....more money for our government

The apparent decline in Apalachicola Kingsnakes is no doubt caused primarily by drastic habitat modification. Silvicultural practices in many areas of the ANF and Tates Hell SF have turned a once thriving Longleaf Pine/Wiregrass community into a monoculture of planted Slash Pine. The bulk of this disturbance has occurred within the last 40 years. As evidence to this, many other species have practically disappeared from the ANF in the last half-century. These include Red Cockaded Woodpeckers, Gopher Tortoises, Eastern Indigos, and both species of Heterodon. To compund the problem, a wave of invasive species have moved in to the area during the same period. Fire ants, Coyotes, armadillos, and feral hogs have all done their part to change the composition of local ecosystems.

Collection and road mortality aren't the primary cause for the kingsnakes' decline but they sure as hell aren't helping. It's quite possible that there is a synergistic effect of all or some of these elements that has resulted in the perceived population crash. Sadly, it is unlikely that the ANF ecosystem will ever be restored to its previous grandeur.
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Pierson Hill

It's been well documented that two forms (forms = species or subspecies) can temporarily split from a single parent species under certain circumstances and then integrate back into a single form once those circumstances disappear. The best example of this phenomenon occurs within the Darwin Finches (Geospiza). It's important to realize that what we call 'species' are not rigidly fixed entities but constantly shifting and changing in response to temporary isolation, hybridization, and genetic drift.

In the case of Apalachicola Kingsnakes, we are most definitely seeing evolution in motion, but in this case regression. We are NOT seeing a new form emerging through natural selection but an old isolate remerging with the parent form. Whatever evolutionary mechanisms that were in place that produced the Apalachicola Kingsnake are certainly no longer in action. The experiment failed, so to speak.

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Pierson Hill

Wow a finch referance and not by Terry. LOL
Later Jason