Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a group of easterns and ornates that I am going to hibernate this year. They eat lots of fruit and veggies with worms here and there. What can I feed them to add weight? Thanks for any responce.

You didn't mention where these animals would be hibernating. T. ornata from texas and T. carolina from one of the Carolinas won't necessarily overwinter well in, say, New York, regardless of diet.

Box turtles don't "fatten up" for hibernation. I can't think of any turtle species that does, as their metabolisms don't work that way. Throughout the year, they should receive enough protein in their diet to maintain a stable body weight. Feeding fruits and vegetables with only a worm here and there will not necissarily accomplish that end.

These animals (particularly many ornata populations) consume a respectable amount of animal matter insofar as dietary percentage is concerned. Feed more invertebrates routinely throughout the year (or Mazuri Freshwater Turtle Diet or Aquamax, soaked) and they should be just as they are in the wild - ready to weather the rigors of winter in their present, rather "unprepped" state.

To consider how important this "state" is, consider that in most regions, what comes just before hibernation prep-time begins is the end of summer - the dry season. That is when food is generally less abundant. These animals don't need anything equivalent to salmon roe for the cold season (grin).

Very nice 3 toeds you have there.
-----
PHRatz

In Massachusetts, I have overwintered Three Toed, Gulf Coast and Western Box Turtles outdoors. In responce to Spottedturtleman about fattening up, its true that your turtles should (especially in the event that they are breeding females which will produce eggs the following spring) have significant body weight and a surplus of fat stores. However as it was stated in the other post, this is a gradual developement over the course of the spring, summer and fall. My Box Turtles are fed mice periodically in addition to their regular diet. Always use "whole" animals (as opposed to just meat tissue) along with the plant diet. Thanx, Leo

Skin & Scales

I'd like to point out a few things, if I may, based on close observation of my Eastern box turtles over the years. I weigh them all each month, and this is what I've found.

A turtle's weight will fluctuate quite a bit over the course of a season. Turtles tend to LOSE weight during hibernation, then regain it later on.
Males will continue to lose weight AFTER emerging from hibernation, probably because they are more pre-occupied with mating than they are with feeding. As the summer temperatures rise, males will be come more interested in food, and gradually gain weight up to hibernation time.
Females will gain weight as they become gravid, then of course lose weight abruptly and dramatically after laying eggs. They will repeat this for a second clutch, after which they gain weight more slowly up until hibernation time.
In other words, after winter weight loss, the overall trend is weight GAIN until fall.
While I would hesitate to say that they should be 'fattened up' prior to hibernation, they should certainly weigh more going IN to hibernation than they did coming OUT. Offering them a balanced diet on a regular basis will allow them to eat as much as they want or need to before winter comes.

Also, as a side bar: in the eastern states, hibernation is preceded by wetter weather.

Regards,
Stephanie

I hope you are not aggravated by this response, as my purpose is not to further opportunity for argument. I know that you are trying to fill in gaps, but you have to understand that details are not always so concrete that they should be interjected where a simple answer will address the needs at hand.

Box turtles, and all turtles, fluctuate in weight to some extent. I was discussing weight on an annual scale, as that is what is important when it comes to chelonian hibernation. Weight on a monthly scale can be an arbitrary measurement, especially if the animals eat frequently (captivity). Why not weigh them every day? After every drink? Throughout the year, successful box turtles maintain stable weights. I don't recall claiming that a stable weight equals a static weight.

You claim that your remarks are drawn from close observation of your animals; I am assuming that means your captive animals. You see, this is at best halfway meaningful data, as their weight gains and losses are largely occuring on behalf of your feeding regimens which are not in accordance with processes of a natural environment. I don't know of any wild population of box turtles that receives 50% animal matter, 10% fruit and so on under a scheduled regimen; if such a population occurs, documentation has yet to reach it. I suppose that if you were referring to your personal successes in hibernating animals, this would be fine, but that which works well for some will not work for all. Perhaps try to emphasize that last part.

I don't know how accurate the statement males continue to lose weight after hibernation is. Again, is this assumption based on captive animals? Do the males in your care simply ignore food because they are too busy pursuing females? I have not known this to be the case for an extended period (e.g., outside of immediate courtship) at any time of year.

Interestingly, the most thorough controlled experiment (which has been published in a newsletter of a peer-reviewed journal, lending us to see some flaw in the experimental process that would otherwise clearly devulge proven data) on initiatives of box turtle reproduction indicate that males, on the grand average, do not make much of the reproductive season short of what (who) they run into. All couplings appear happy accidents and do not seem to be based on visual or scent cues, or a seasonal increase in home range. The experiment was performed on T.c.carolina and was published in the CRF newsletter, although I don't recall which issue (should be indexed on the website).

Also curious is that in two large "populations" of box turtles (triunguis), I have found males to be the least plastic with regards to their respective home ranges. This does not support males going on reproductive hunts early in the year.

You are indeed correct about the weight loss in females post-egg-deposition. However, this loss is largely in terms of water and minerals, and as soon as rehydration occurs, little if any visual difference is to be noted in muscle mass. Many females do not double clutch.

You hesitate to recommend fattening up box turtles for the same reason most would - turtle metabolic rates do not beckon rapid weight manipulation. I would hope that most if not all people on this forum would understand that hibernating animals lose some weight, thus descending animals should weigh more than emerging animals. To have stated that is to answer a question that was never asked in this thread. Actually, the initiating question, inquiring how to fatten box turtles up, reverberates that potential weight loss through hibernation was already understood.

Box turtles are one of those species groups that actually have very heterogeneous natural histories. T.c.carolina in Kentucky are more similar in their physical ecology to T.c.triunguis a hundred miles west of the Mississippi River than they are to T.c.carolina on the northeastern seaboard. Throw in considerations for bauri and you have a whole new wrinkle. Include T. ornata and virtually every habitat consideration is different (in certain areas of range overlap between the two species, it is merely the separate habitats that keep the species separated at the genetic level; in some locales this breaks down into quite interesting looking specimens).

What I am getting at is that even though box turtles have many detail differences between them at the species, subspecies and (likely most importantly) local levels, they still compose a group unified enough in natural history to withstand infliction of an "overall" concept to many of their most basic demands as captive specimens.

However, this breaks down whenever someone tries to start including left and right details that may or may not apply to someone else's animals, which are from somewhere else and are now being maintained somewhere else-else. This group is popular enough to have given rise to over-detailed and consequently confusing information with regards to captive maintenance. Should I maintain triunguis from southeast LA at the same winter temperature as those from northwest AR, since they're the same subspecies? If so, should they hibernate for the same length of time? What if my triunguis are from the pet trade - do they come from Louisiana or east Texas; does this matter? What about my major from Pensacola - can they hibernate with my luteola from the Sky Islands? What should each one weigh in June? The more detailed an informed response to a basic question is, the more complicated, and often confused, the subsequent questions become. Next thing you know, both parties are considering aspects that might not reflect anything of special importance, insofar as the turtles concern themselves.

Oftentimes, to let an owner learn how to be interpretive is to give pearls, as this is the only way that someone maintaining turtles (or any environmentally-strapped organisms) can come to decipher big concerns versus small, likely inconsequential concerns. As a further side note, although the eastern seaboard gets a fair amount of rain towards fall, west of Appalachia this is often not the case. Consider the other species of mention, T. ornata. The later the warm season gets, the drier and drier conditions usually become. On behalf of low winter temps on exposed terrain, this species tends to lose more weight than the forest dwellers during hibernation even though they can’t gain weight as late into the year.

The animals below have a great deal of zest considering they went through Hurricane Katrina the day before; the stick in the photo is part of a sixty foot oak that was felled by the winds.

While your knowledge seems to be impressive, I think you should re-read my post...I opened it by stating that it was based on my observations of my own turtles. I think you mistook my meaning: it wasn't a blanket statement about ALL turtles, EVERYWHERE.

Of course there will be differences regionally and individually in both wild and captive populations: that is (to me at least) self evident.

About weighing my turtles monthly:
By weighing my turtles on a monthly basis, I'm able to better monitor weight changes that might not be so 'normal', and in turn to monitor overall health. Weighing them on a regular basis is part of the husbandry routine: they are weighed and given a thorough visual inspection. If one of them seems under weight, then I watch it carefully to see if it shows any signs of being sick, or in the case of sub-adults, pushed away from the food offered by more aggressive adults. I have turtles here that are still growing, so for one of them to merely maintain the same weight from spring through fall would actually be cause for concern.
Thanks for all the information.
Regards
Stephanie

I'm not being argumentative, by the way, since I think that we are fundamentally in agreement here.
Regards
Stephanie

A diet of about 50% animal protein, 30% vegetables, 10% greens and 10% fruit has been keeping our Eastern box turtles healthy for years now.
I'll post a link to a website with excellent suggestions for diets.
Good luck
Stephanie

Here's that link.
Link