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I notice with the Goini debate that alot of west coast guys feel it is a joke that Goini and the pattern variation they show could warrant a subspecies status. I think that is because of the experience you guyys have with the Cali Kings.

The differance I see (as a east coast guy lol) is that the Cali Kings show variation throughout their range. As far as I understand it you can get stripers all over the range as well as other types. This is just a impression I get and I would like to hear opinions on this. Understand, for some reason I never got interested in Cali's so my info may be way off but I don't think so.

Over on the east coast we have the same looking snakes from Jersey to Georgia. Yes there is band count variance from north to south. Nowhere in the eastern range do you get patterless or stripers. (except for one or two here or there) In Florida you get the same looking snake from Georgia to the Miami area. There is some variance in color obviously but nothing like Goini.

Now the Goini range has a few hundred miles to Floridana and is surronded by Getula all around. I think some of the black king range is almost closer to Goini than the strong population of Floridana,... to the south especially. The northern range of the Floridana pop. is far to the east of the state near the coast with some intergration with Getula that don't look like Goini. The Suwanee Kings where the result of this I thought but I may be mistaken. The cross of Getula/Floridana I have seen have reminded me of Suwanee Kings (Muttly anyone??) and not Goini. The theory of it happening years ago and back breeding comeing up with Goini is one I don't like.

Lastly the breeding of WC Goini that look like Goini and not crosses with easterns(Like Sean's recent finds) have produced all Goini types and no easterns from what I have seen. Granted I have only seen two clutches of WC Goini(Krysko's) because of the rareity of them now but they all looked like Goini. As far as I understand this has been the case for most people.

I believe this is where we Goini believers get our ideas from. That and we love the snakes and want them to be different and a little more special because they are. When all is said and done I believe we will all have the same views we came in with because we are a stupporn group. I just hope all this talk gets a couple more people into these snakes. No matter what you call them they are great snakes to work with and enjoy.

Later Jason

Over on the east coast we have the same looking snakes from Jersey to Georgia. Yes there is band count variance from north to south. Nowhere in the eastern range do you get patterless or stripers. (except for one or two here or there) In Florida you get the same looking snake from Georgia to the Miami area. There is some variance in color obviously but nothing like Goini.

Jason, there have been a few partially striped Eastern's that I've seen but they have a light stripe against a dark background...totally opposite from the Apalachicola King. Something interesting though is the Mosaics Kevin Enge is working with. He showed me a striped specimen not too long ago that looks identical to a striped Apalachicola King. This leads me to believe the AK most likely evolved from Easterns and has nothing to do with Floridas. It would be interesting to see what happens if you bred a striped AK with a striped Mosaic though!

Now the Goini range has a few hundred miles to Floridana and is surronded by Getula all around. I think some of the black king range is almost closer to Goini than the strong population of Floridana,... to the south especially. The northern range of the Floridana pop. is far to the east of the state near the coast with some intergration with Getula that don't look like Goini. The Suwanee Kings where the result of this I thought but I may be mistaken. The cross of Getula/Floridana I have seen have reminded me of Suwanee Kings (Muttly anyone??) and not Goini. The theory of it happening years ago and back breeding comeing up with Goini is one I don't like.

Actually, Speckled King's range is closer than the Black King. In fact, Speckleds intergrade with Easterns in Alabama and you have to go farther north to get into nigrita's range.

Speaking of Suwanee Kings, I can see where some people assume "goini" are FL X Eastern intergrades based on some specimens. Here's a WC male of a Jacksonville specimen from Kevin Enge featured on Hillson's site.

And here's a dor from Gulf Co., FL that I found last year:

Both look very similar but notice the bands. The Jacksonville specimen has very clean bands while the Gulf Co. specimen has that split coloration on the scales. I've yet to see any specimen from the Apalachicola Region have clean bands like that. I wish I had pics of the ventral scales from that Jax. specimen so I could compare them to the dor I found (still in my freezer) and I bet there would be noticeable differences.

Lastly the breeding of WC Goini that look like Goini and not crosses with easterns(Like Sean's recent finds) have produced all Goini types and no easterns from what I have seen. Granted I have only seen two clutches of WC Goini(Krysko's) because of the rareity of them now but they all looked like Goini. As far as I understand this has been the case for most people.

I too have never seen the breeding of two AKs produce any type of Eastern. Even the intergrades produce offspring with variation in width of bands and interband lightening. As for Cal Kings, I think you're correct in that banded and striped forms exist all over their range. But you don't get patternless forms or forms with interband lightening. The AKs only exist in a small area in the panhandle of Florida and I think if they were a morph of the Eastern, you'd see them throughout the entire Eastern king range. But you don't which is why I believe they are distinct.

I was thinking of the speckleds and not the blacks, sorry about that. The point was that there are closer Getula than Floridas and with the look of speckleds I have alwaya wonder why they are not figured into the equation of Goini make-up. I had thought that was in Krysko's paper but when I read it again it was not so I don't know where I got it from. I would kinda like to see a three way cross or a Suwanee breed to a eastern/speckled cross. I say kinda because there is enough crap out there that we can not ID already.

Later Jason

I have a Suwanee King that is supposed to be from Enge. I got him at the same time that I got the patternless AK that Zenny now has. So its the same story for this one. I don't know if it came from Enge but that is what I was told. Anyway I will get a belly pic for you. Oh and I spoke with Enge about it trying to find a mate and he didn't have much info on anyone who has them now and could not tell me if the one I have came from him. I never showed him the snake though so who knows.
Later Jason

As far as I know the striped phase of Cal King occurs only in the southwestern portion of California from Los Angeles County south all along the coast and eastward as far as Anza Boreggo State Park and also down into Baja. Then there is the melanistic form which occurs from Davis and down along the San Joaquine River and also in Los Angeles county. Also melanistic banded striped and I think abberrants occur in Baja. I don't know of any completly striped specimens occuring in the range where the melanistics are found within the USA but there are striped/abberrants. I don't think any stipeds occur in Monterey, San Luis Obispo, Santa Barbara or Ventura counties or in northern and extreme eastern CA. Nor do I think there are any stripers in AZ, UT, WA and OR.
Brian Hubbs is working on a book on Common Kings that should be out soon and he is an expert on Cal Kings so it should have better info than I can give.

Man, that Jacksonville king is one of the most beautiful kings I've ever seen! Is it being bred? Is that what's considered a Suwannee king?

Also, Sean, does that snake in the middle picture in Jason's post look like the aberrant Floridas you hatched out? Any recent pictures of them?

Thanks!

fliptop

Nice post Jason! Now you live in Illinois so you arent a East Coast boy anymore but a midwesterner lol and the worse sort....the Illinois subspecies ewwwwww.lol

Keith
-----

Yeah and ther aint notin goud to herp fer round heer neither. I misst da South.
Later Corn Feed Southern Boy

At least check the books, no offense, but stripe kings are very very restricted in location, to coastal San Diego area, then follow a few drainages north, and east. Stripe kings stop to the north around Elisnore, Calif. And end to the east at Scissors crossing, a few miles east of Julian Calif. Then consider, banded kings occur from southern Washington state, to the tip of Baja, Del sur. and to the west to Tucson Az. Including central and north western parts of Ariz, and parts of Nev.

So no, they do not occur together thru out their range. In fact, some of the morphs, have a much smaller range then "goini" does. Some of the odd dark morphs, and newporters occur in very small pockets, mostly coastal, from newport to around L.A.X.. I believe theres a dark morph in central calif. But I do not know exactly where.

I feel I am at a disadvantage, because I actually have seen most of the above and researched their range, including Easterns and goini. Again I am surprised to hear, you do not have any idea what Cal kings do. Please understand, the range of striped kings and banded kings is clearly published in many books. Please check this out and then re-theorize you thoughts. FR

Nagh, That would take effort. Kidding I really don't know the Calis very well but was more making a effort to start a little discussion. There are some great minds out west and you guys defend your kings. I have seen a few range maps for the differant morphs and they are all over the place. My point was not that there are huge areas of morphs but instead that there are morphs in more than one spot. Out here in the east there is really only the range of AK and then the disjunct range of Brooks. Comparing the two was for the sakeof discussion.
Later Jason

Jason, good points of view, however nothing is going to convince me that the apalachicola lowland phase in it's striped/blotched/banded patterns and patternless is it's own sub.
To me it's nothing more than a different looking Lampropeltis getula getula and anyone is welcome to try to prove me wrong.

Aaehahaha LOl Johnny Boy I don't need to prove anything to you. As I said in the last paragraph of the first post I just want people to like them. You are a lost cause because they are kings so you already like em, you have the addiction bad. I never had anything to prove to you, because like me, you don't really care what they are called. You just think they are cool and the rest of this stuff is crap. But at least you think I had a decent post. Later Bud
later Jason

"Johnny Boy"??? that's what my relatives used to call me,lol, thanks for reminding me.
here's a blotched phase, Later

:QUOTE:I notice with the Goini debate that alot of west coast guys feel it is a joke that Goini and the pattern variation they show could warrant a subspecies status. I think that is because of the experience you guyys have with the Cali Kings.

The differance I see (as a east coast guy lol) is that the Cali Kings show variation throughout their range. As far as I understand it you can get stripers all over the range as well as other types. This is just a impression I get and I would like to hear opinions on this. Understand, for some reason I never got interested in Cali's so my info may be way off but I don't think so.

Over on the east coast we have the same looking snakes from Jersey to Georgia. Yes there is band count variance from north to south. Nowhere in the eastern range do you get patterless or stripers. (except for one or two here or there) In Florida you get the same looking snake from Georgia to the Miami area. There is some variance in color obviously but nothing like Goini.

Now the Goini range has a few hundred miles to Floridana and is surronded by Getula all around. I think some of the black king range is almost closer to Goini than the strong population of Floridana,... to the south especially. The northern range of the Floridana pop. is far to the east of the state near the coast with some intergration with Getula that don't look like Goini. The Suwanee Kings where the result of this I thought but I may be mistaken. The cross of Getula/Floridana I have seen have reminded me of Suwanee Kings (Muttly anyone??) and not Goini. The theory of it happening years ago and back breeding comeing up with Goini is one I don't like.

Lastly the breeding of WC Goini that look like Goini and not crosses with easterns(Like Sean's recent finds) have produced all Goini types and no easterns from what I have seen. Granted I have only seen two clutches of WC Goini(Krysko's) because of the rareity of them now but they all looked like Goini. As far as I understand this has been the case for most people.

I believe this is where we Goini believers get our ideas from. That and we love the snakes and want them to be different and a little more special because they are. When all is said and done I believe we will all have the same views we came in with because we are a stupporn group. I just hope all this talk gets a couple more people into these snakes. No matter what you call them they are great snakes to work with and enjoy.

,,,,,,well
first great topic,,,,,,,
as a third coast guy(tx)wait let me rephrase a GETULA guy.
my opinion is goini,meansi,appalach whatever cute lil name folks wanna call it is actually just a variant of l.g.g and just as ALL variants of getula across the continent will and do breed true(pattern wise).why? because its in their makeup thru evolving in their surroundings to do so!,also i might add is why its ever changing as is their environment.can we duplicate and create variant forms in captive breedings?i beleive so through several generations. fact is a variant is not a ssp. and as far as suwanee HA thats mute just common intergrades of l.g.flXl.g.g ,,,goini or whatever i beleive are/were a relic variant form of l.g.g that remained isolated in a region where there was no need for pattern variation just like l.g.sticticeps obk's IMHO,,,,oilwell i remember i was kinda sad when l.g.yumensis was declassified as l.g.cali but after working w/them and all forms of l.g.ca.i know thats what they are variants of the same ssp.matter of fact this ole hippy will go so far as to say that the species is GETULA and all the lil ssp.names across the whole continent we put on these variants are nothing more than big brother creating beuracracy and paperwork fact is ALL getula key out within acceptable ranges to be the same snake specie!period! ok im done:0,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis

Thomas, that was a GREAT post i could'nt of said it better myself.