Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK, gentleman here is the scoop. I recently asked one of my teachers if I could join the science fair with an experiment involving venomous snakes(southern copperheads). But the problem is, I don't know exactly what topic to do.I have a couple ideas one involving the effects the venom on blood. Now I have a friend who has offered to give up some blood, and myself (I have been bitten,which should make things interesting) and another topic on the effects of venom on cancer. the problem with that is, where can I get my hands on some cancer.

ANY IINFO OR IDEAS WILL BE APPRECIATED

Daniel Jarvis

Has the teacher answered your request? I think he/she would be crazy to consent given that they are allowing you to milk a venomous snake and contact human blood in the days of blood borne pathogens. This serves as my disclaimer as well.
To answer your questions:
You might try substituting animal blood for human blood (this is caller a "model".
If you live near a medical school, go to a basic sciences department for help. The research you are proposing may be complicated and require expensive equipment.
Tissue samples such as cancer are aquired from surgery patients. Again, the medical school advice applies. Perhaps animal samples could be used (modelling again).
You might consider something that does not involve humans or even animals (besides the snake). The effects of venom on bread mold or the like. I am not trying to be funny, some weird discoveries are made by accidently observing the unexpected.
Good luck.

What grade are you talking about?

There is a lot of difference between a grade 5 (if this is the case, why do you have hots?) science fair, and a university fair.

Assuming this is for a master's or Phd, or somthing of the like, I would contact Dr. Fry and venomdoc.com for some ideas. He would have a good idea on what research has been done, and what would still be beneficial to do in the near future.

If it is more simple and you just want to watch venom kill blood cells on a microscope slide then well, mix'm up and see what happens... good luck on milking your snake (is my sarcasm apparent?)

Ian

Seriously I wonder because it is wrong on so many levels.

First: No elementry school (that I know of) would allow a copperhead in the class (unless there was a trained adult and even then there are insurance issues).

Second: Bringing Blood into school is yet another health Risk.

Find another topic.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

NO this is not a joke.

First of all, i'm not in elementary school,And I figured you people would be a little bit more suportive of someone educating the public a little more than (If it is venomous it will kill you) kind of attitude. But, maby I was wrong or,I'm an opptimist in a pessimist world.

We are generally a very supportive group but your suggestion is aweful on many levels. Here's one:

You have no real or even a clear hypothesis. How can you design any experiment without the point you hope to prove or dis-prove. Where were you when the science teacher taught the chapter on the experimental method?

Go back and ask your teacher for help, that's why they are there.

If I remember correctly, a while back a science teacher was nearly fired for having Venomoids in class and you want to have a live Hot at the science fair. I can see why Frank thought this was a joke. It would be like showing up with a loaded gun...better scrap that idea too.

Al

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You can take the snake out of the jungle but you can't take the jungle out of the snake.

I think I would have to agree with the others. I am a 5th year senoir at a University and work with hot snakes, but I still wouldn't bring a hot snake into one of my classes for a presentation. Use a video or something creative. Do not bring a hot snake to school. AND I would highly advise against milking this animal. Have you ever done it before?? There is a plethora of things you can do revolving around this animal without actually bringing it. Good luck
Jason

First I apologise, Your question struck me as likely from that age group because the flaws in your are obvious and an olde person (I would hope) would hve thought of these first.

Second...What the others have said here is correct. There are an overwhelming amount of safety issues your project would violate.

We are all in favor of educating the public SAFELY. Photos and charts may not be as compelling an exhibit as you milking a live snake, but NO sane faculty would allow a student of (what grade?) any grade to perform a dangerous stunt like that in a school.

Again, think insurance.....Theirs.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

My gut feeling is that the original person posting is either playing a great joke on us, or, someone who is in his middle school years or younger (if it's high school, they need to re-evaluate their language arts program). First, and most importantly, aside from the many flaws already discussed, is that NO SCHOOL IN THE U.S. WOULD EVER APPROVE THIS....none, not a single one, end of discussion.

PS: if the original person posting wants to contact me directly and ask for ideas, I'd be happy to help but based on the attitude he gave some who I respect a lot, I doubt that will happen (and he'll owe them an apology)

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>First I apologise, Your question struck me as likely from that age group because the flaws in your are obvious and an olde person (I would hope) would hve thought of these first.
>>
>>Second...What the others have said here is correct. There are an overwhelming amount of safety issues your project would violate.
>>
>>We are all in favor of educating the public SAFELY. Photos and charts may not be as compelling an exhibit as you milking a live snake, but NO sane faculty would allow a student of (what grade?) any grade to perform a dangerous stunt like that in a school.
>>
>>Again, think insurance.....Theirs.
>>
>>Frank
>>-----
>>"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

"Now I have a friend who has offered to give up some blood, and myself (I have been bitten,which should make things interesting)"

If you are a minor, you have no business transporting hot snakes ANYWHERE, much less your school! I'm not sure I understood how you being bitten previously will make things more interesting (should really make you reconsider what you plan on doing), so are you really sure that you are qualified to be working with a venomous snake period, much less in a public environment? And third, are you planning on milking this snake yourself, because I can see a news headline in the near future if that is the case. Sorry to be so harsh, I'm really not trying to be. It's just that these kinds of post scare people on this forum.

I apologize if I came off as rude. That was not my intentions, and I also apologize for being unclear. But the project will not be done at the school. It will be done at my house, for safty reasons. I am in the process of getting doctor and veternarian verification. I didn't mean to offend anyone, but the reason I posted was to get some advice and/or ideas from you people.I respect your thoughts, and I am truly, deeply, sorry if I offended anyone.

Thank you,

Daniel J.

P.S. Any new ideas will be greatly appreciated

I would recommend if you insist on doing this that you notify your doctor or at the least have your emergency numbers close by. If you get bit time is critical.

As to the blood. Well you know you want to carefully control that in no way you achieve physical contact with it. No insult intended but in a HIV world ANY blood other than your own can be a threat.

While I cannot endorse your enterprise, I wish you luck with it.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

If this project is related to a school function, it doesn't matter if it is done at the school or in the confines of your home...personally, its wrong either way. This is something that should only be done at the college level and by professionals who know the proper techniques in restraining venomous snakes. Due to your inexperience, you have no business trying to pull this off and it will only result in something terrible happening. We commend your willingness and interest in this project, and, it does have merits, but there are many, many logistical problems with how it is currently set up. Now, if you were able to have a reptile zoo/museum/etc take this on and if you could observe the process, take pictures, take notes, tabulate the results and share them, then, that would be perfectly acceptable.

>>I would recommend if you insist on doing this that you notify your doctor or at the least have your emergency numbers close by. If you get bit time is critical.
>>
>>As to the blood. Well you know you want to carefully control that in no way you achieve physical contact with it. No insult intended but in a HIV world ANY blood other than your own can be a threat.
>>
>>While I cannot endorse your enterprise, I wish you luck with it.
>>
>>
>>Frank
>>-----
>>"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

I second your approach Rob, and the teacher involved will probably give out higher marks with such a mentorship pursued.
Ian

Wow blood-venom-cancer ! sounds like you chosing a tricky topic.
Why not going for something easier like preferred body temperature.
Not trying to disuade you or anything

Best way to go about it is to liase with one of your local universities, specifically someone who is doing blood work (someone in a School of Medicine should be doing something like that). They will already have the ethics approval for working with human blood (or you could use rat). As for the venom, unless you have experience milking snakes, the easiest way would be to have the collaborator at the University place a small order for venom from somewhere such as the Kentucky Reptile Park. You could do something as simple, but interesting, as variations between different subspecies of copperhead in their ability to block platelet aggregation.

Feel free to email me direct if you have any specific questions or have the local uni collaborator contact me if they have anything they want answered or clarified.

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
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Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
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Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
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http://www.venomdoc.com