Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Reading a few posts lately and they make it seem like using tap water is taboo with snakes. Is this really an issue, and if so, why? I'm really curious to see what everyone says. Thanks a lot.

I have been using tap water for over 3 years, and I feel that my snakes are healthy and robust. Chlorine usually exits the water within a day or so, and given the amount snakes drink, I don't feel it's an issue. If you have really lousy water for some reason, you may consider alternatives. Also, one of the reasons I think most folks should start with an easy and inexpensive snake is that if there are problems that they did not anticipate, they have not lost a huge investment.

I now keep gallon jugs of water in my snake room, not entirely full and open to the air. By the time I use them, any chlorine should be gone. I do this more for convenience than to "age" the water, but it could be a good idea in some cases. I always age water for fish and turtles, since that is their environment.
Duffy

All this talk of the "dangers" of chlorinated water has really got me scratching my head.

I've been keeping snakes for almost 35 years and I have ALWAYS given them tap water. I have kept individual snakes for 15+ years on nothing but chlorinated tap water.

Hobbyists and Zoos all around the world have been using chlorinated water for their snakes for decades (representing tens of thousands of data points). It seems if it was a real problem, we would know something about it by now!

Yes, chloraminated water seems to have a negative impact on fish and amphibians, but I have never seen any documentation that it negatively impacts snakes.

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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, TX

I use distilled water with my snake (same as I give to my carnivorous plants) since my house has untreated and hard well water. If the tap water was good/safe enough for me, then I would use it with my snake but regrettably, that isn't the case.
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0.1 chickens (Condor)
0.2 dog mutts (half ownership, only mine when they misbehave, Lucy & Amy)
0.1 Halflinger horse (Crissy)
0.1 Normal phase California Kingsnake (Sophia)
1.1 parents
Still searching for 1.0 WC human

Uh...not so fast guys.

Two factors come to mind which should be considered BEFORE giving your snakes tap Water.

First: Chloramine. This is an ammonia compound that is injected into water supplies in many places. Chloramine does not disappear into the atmosphere as it is designed to keep Chlorine in suspention for very long periods. The addition of a chemical like AMQUEL is necessary to make your water snake safe.

Second: Some areas also Fluoridate water which kills fish and at the very least some Amphibs.

Check your water dept first...Always.

As to documented deaths I have had a few that were possible and one death (a Waglerophis sp) confirmed. Tentical snakes are very sensitive to water issues.

I would be very leary of any water sensitive species.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

First: Chloramine. This is an ammonia compound that is injected into water supplies in many places. Chloramine does not disappear into the atmosphere as it is designed to keep Chlorine in suspention for very long periods. The addition of a chemical like AMQUEL is necessary to make your water snake safe.

The key element here is that you imply that chloramine treated water isn't "snake safe". There is NO evidence to support this.

Second: Some areas also Fluoridate water which kills fish and at the very least some Amphibs.

Fish and Amphibians have skin that is very permeable to water soluble chemicals. Reptiles don't.

As to documented deaths I have had a few that were possible

What do you base this on? I have heard of animals dying without explanation but have never heard anyone imply that it had anything to do with chlorine/chloramine in the water.

and one death (a Waglerophis sp) confirmed.

How was it confirmed that chloramine/chlorine killed the snake? What was the evidence?

Tentical snakes are very sensitive to water issues.

This is true of both Tentacled Snakes and Achrocordus. They often get mysterious white pustules on their skin and die when water conditions are not correct (at least, we think water conditios lead to this - there is some question about this). But this problem has no correlation with chlorine or chloramine since I have seen it occur in tap water, DI water, or even distilled water.

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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, TX

I have to agree with Chris H on this one. As long as i have been keeping reptiles I have always used regular tap water, and have never had any problems, much less deaths that I could find any evidence whatsoever to put on to the water. As chrisH brought out, fish and amphibian problems can not be reasonably related to those of reptiles, because the problems reguarding those, comes from their skin being water permiable and sensetive to chemicals. While of course there is no harm in using distilled water, there is no proof that using tap water is dangerous, aside from theory with unexplained death. However it's just that, a theory with an unexplained death that could just as easily be blamed on the husbandry of the keeper.

AGAIN...How do you know it is not a factor?

Also, do you have Chloromine in your water? You all ask me for studys and I don't see any hard evidence from you that I am wrong.

Sorry but after 35 years of keeping experience I really have to place keeper maintnance at the bottom of possibilities. Especially when I have a snake die after 6 months of being healthy from one intoduction to Chlorimine treated water.

Thanks but I'll err to the side of common sense and treat my water.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Reptiles like any other animal (including MAN) absorb liquids thru their skin. Why do you think so many die from contact with pesiticides????

Even if they didn't, THEY DRINK.

(Ever notice how many medications are placed dermally? (absorbed thru the skin)

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I never said that they DID NOT obsorb, and if that's what you got from my statment let me correct myself. Their skin is not AS permiable as that of fish and amphibians. And i don't disagree with you that it is smart to er on the side of caution and treat water. I can only say i have never had problems with tap water (allthough i can't say for a fact or not if mine is treated) And that there is no solid evidence that it is a danger.

"There is no solid reason...."

If that is the logic you want to bet your animals life on....Well I'm done.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Understood Chris, but how do you know for a Fact that Chlorine doesn't adversly affect reptiles? What-because they survived your using it?

All that suggests is that your snakes were either healthy enough to tollerate the poison, or that (if they died) they were stressed enough by it that another agent (disease) killed them. How do you know?

But this raises the following questions.

First: Is your water supply treated with Chloromine? have you had any experience with water treated by this chemical?

Second: are you denying the adverse effects of Chlorine on wildlife?

Third: The documented death was of a long term (but not old) captive that required mistings on a regular (daily) basis-plus standing water. The only change in the entire setup, was my being in a hurry one day and replacing his water DIRECTLY from the tap. When I returned home he was discolored and he died within hours.

I should point out this was a very Aquatic form of Waglerophis, normally a light green in color. It turned blotchy grey before it died. I have noticed similar discoloration in Rough Keeled Green Snakes that were poisoned by insecticide in the Everglades.

Side bar...

When first keeping Tenticals I made the mistake of placing them in fresh tap water. I lost a few to a blister disease which I cannot confirm that was a result of the chlorine as much as the PH. The Dallas ZOO has an excellent setup on T-snakes. I had a long conversation on this subject with the curator a couple of years back. T-snakes need low PH water with lots of tannins present. Interestingly, this was something which the Zoo and I had both arrived at independantly of each other. I have yet to breed this species (they have) but mine live on average about five years).

And back to subject...

By the way...my experience with Chlorimine treated water is extensive due to my other hobby of fish keeping. It is commonly used here.

You made a serious error in your arguement when you said that snakes are not as permiable as Amphibs. They are my friend, but that is irrelevant.

Snakes, like people and all other animals DO have a large degree of absorption thru the skin. Plus since they drink, a large amount is also taken orally. More so with aquatic forms. It is the greater mass of cats dogs and people that allows us to drink Chlorine treated water and tollerate it.

I do not know of a specific study on the effects of Chlorimine treated water on snakes. The adverse (lethal) effect on fish (approximately 100%) is well documented. It is only reasonable to assume that since Chlorine has such a deadly effect that it can't be all that healthy for herps either.

The point is..Why take the risk?

Like I said on my first post. It is prudent to check your water for what is added into it. When dealing with so many unknown variables it is kind of rolling the dice if you don't.

Perhaps some of those "mystery" deaths can be stopped.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

My tentacled snakes which got white spot disease, had distilled water. There is chloramine in the water here an none my snakes have ever had a reaction that I know of.

You know, this is not the first time you have contradicted everything I've said on a thread.

My opinion and information was given to the person who asked the orrigional question-not to inspire your entertainment, which seems to be your motive here.

If I say somethings black you will find reasons that it's really white. Sorry but I have better things to do then play games.

This is why so many herpers leave these boards.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

And if you had bothered to read my post you would have seen Tentical snakes need a low PH and Tannins. But then according to you I guess the Dallas Zoo is also wrong.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I don't know if that is direct at me or at Chris, but I also came to the conclusion that tanic acid was helpful with tentacleds. The more I talk to people who have kept them successfully the more I am convinced that it is not acidity or the tanic acid that they need, but an antifungal environment which is provided by the tanic acid, but also by keeping them at a higher ph and promoting algae growth. If I have contradict you in the past, don't feel offended I contradict lots of people, it's one of the side effects of being a free thinker. I believe more often then not your counter arguments have given me something to think about. Anyway my point was that white spot disease occurs in the absence of chloramine. It still may be that it harmful to them, Personally I would remove it for tentacles or any aquatic snake. As for others, I don't see any imediate reaction, but that's not to say that there isn't long term effects for their health, or ours for that matter. That's one of the reasons most people pay for bottled water now a' days!

The algae growth is irrelevant as neither my tank nor another keeper I knew who was also successful (a neat freak)never had that situation. Dallas and Ft. Worth Zoo's kept their tanks heavily planted, but they agreed that a lower PH was preferable.

In all three colonies I observed, the blister disease was associated with high PH and disappeared if the snakes were returned to tannin rich, low PH water.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Out of all the keepers I have polled there are two types of successful keepers. The first is a low PH with tanic acid, the second, generally disregard PH, and have PH levels above 7.0 in well established tanks that support algae growth. This points to two things in my mind both environments are antifungal, they are also Ammonia free. Ammonia is neutralized below 6.0 and less likely to be present in well established tanks that may have a higher PH. There is also the third method which is to use pond water. That one can go either way since pond water can be high in tanic acid and micoflora supporting the antifungal hypothesis, or high in nitrosomas bateria, supporting the Ammonia hypothesis. At any rate my point was that I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with the idea that chloramine is bad, just that your examples don't support it.

Since you insist that Chloromine is added to your water and you continue to say it has no ill effects on your animals (contrary to what Chris and I both contend, I can only say something is different there. I don't know if it's your water chemistry or that whoever you asked misunderstood you and actually meant Chlorine (which seems more likely) but you are the first person I have ever met that claimed Chloromine is harmless.

It really is simple. It is a well established fact that it is lethal to fish and likely so for amphibians (I am not willing to kill off a load of frogs just to prove this). This being the case, the fact that many reptiles do absorb a lot of water, pure logic states that there has to be a negative effect.

You did not say Rick whether you thought Chlorine in suspention is harmful to herps-It definitly has a negative effect on humans (sore throat exetera...). I know this because my water company occasionally screws up and adds too much to the water--and I can smell it easily when they do. It only makes sense that smaller animals would have more extreme reactions to it.

So, If we accept the negative effects from Chlorine any thing that keeps it concentrated in suspention cannot be good for any animals, especially since Chloromine is an Ammonia compound. Something else that is poisonous.

I am not privy to the examples of European studies Chris mentions, I am afraid all I have is observations from my own collection, my Zoo collection and others.

Since I am not a rank amatuer (by 35 years of professional and private keeping of reptiles Amphibians and fish) I would have thought I qualified to give a accurate opinion.

As my report as a professional witness seems unacceptable to you, I have nothing further to add.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I don't mean to insult you, I certainly respect your opinion, and will give it consideration especially when dealing with snakes that are known to be sensitive, or known to die from unkown causes. It's just that I like to see more concrete evidence then personal antedotical examples. Your examples of sudden illness and death are no more proof that it is harmful then my examples of giving it to my snakes is proof that its okay. There is the possiblity that differing levels are responsible for our differing observations, in any case, there has to be research that can prove your conclusions. We do have Chloramine in the tap water here in Maryland, I remember when they started adding it about ten years ago. My understanding of its effects have been that its dangerous to animals that have gills, or amphibians that absorb it through the skin, but to drink it is fine, going by that assumption I have never removed it from the drinking water of my snakes,lizards or dogs and cats for that matter, and have not seen any effect that I can link to it.

I am left to wonder about the water conditions (pre Chloramine) in your water vs my area's.

By any chance do you know the PH and DH of your Tap water?

Our water comes from a calcium carbonate rich aquifer. Water here is 7.5-8 PH from there and quite hard. Our surface water tends to be lower in PH in the Glades area due primarely lots of roting vegs. Our tap water is largely recycled so it is usually a chemical rich mess.

A lot can depend on the mineral composition. If your water source is more igneous (quartz, feldspar, mica, etc...) it can make a difference, depending on what is or is not placed in solution.

I will admit, Geology is as big a pasion to me as Herps and Fish are.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Hardness and PH sound similar, we also have a lot of calcium in the tap.

Then it has to be an issue of...

A) what type of Chloromine are they using.

B) what percentage they are adding to the water.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

The key element here is that you imply that chloramine treated water isn't "snake safe". There is NO evidence to support this.

Chloramine-T has been used in parts of Europe for a lot longer than in the US and certainly preceeded herpetoculture over there. They do have evidence of chloramine being toxic to captive snakes.

If you ever get your hands on herpetoculture articles translated from Germany, Holland, Denmark, etc. you'll sometimes read reference to this research. I have never bothered to track down the original papers much less have them translated. As such, I have no idea of what type of journal they were published in.

However, a few Europeans I exchange e-mails with re. Gonyosoma warn me about Chloramine.

What kind of symptoms are they saying that chloramine is causing and in it what snakes?

If I remember correctly, it's been shown to cause death in some of the racer-like colubrids. Also thought to cause death in otherwise sick or stressed snakes.

Again, I don't know how robust the research is that supports this. But the Europeans do tend to be pretty thorough about this type of stuff.

They may also use a slightly different chloramine compound which can make a huge difference. We all know that from mite treatment where two very similar compounds can very greatly in toxicity towards reptiles.

I liked to see research on the subject, if you have a link I'd appreciate it. As I told Frank, I don't doubt the possiblity that is bad, I just see any direct connections.

I have not read this on the web. All of the information is from translated articles dealing with reptile husbandry. So it's no different than reading an article in Reptiles Magazine where the author sites outside research suggesting something is toxic. It's still the outside research that needs to be tracked down. And that is very difficult to do under these circumstances. The big factor is that the translator of these articles was only doing so for the husbandry information, not for the bibliography.

If you have ever conversed with a reptile keeper from mainland Europe you know they tend to take this stuff pretty seriously. For them, having kept reptiles for 15 years "without any problem" is not good enough. They still want data. That and the fact that some chloramine-neutralizing products originate from Europe tells me that there is likely legitimate reason for concern. How serious it is and whether is applies to the water supply here in the US is another question.

>>I liked to see research on the subject, if you have a link I'd appreciate it. As I told Frank, I don't doubt the possiblity that is bad, I just see any direct connections.

Europeans do a lot of foolish things, like staying in Europe for example. All the smart ones became Americans along time ago. So I'll see if I can find some research...

Having spent time in Europe I cannot let this one pass (lol). Spain was great to live in--Far better than S. Florida with it's heavy Hispanic (pseudo-Spanish)population.

Besides, Americans aren't so smart. They elected Super Shrub twice!

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Well you got me there, I can find no intelligent reason for electing him once, muchless twice.

I've used tap water for my snakes without any problems for about 12 years now. Actually I think it's a good thing, I beleive it prohibits the growth of organisms in the water that could be harmful to the snake.